So all British people are assholes. I see. Well, I wish I had your mastery of the absolutes of etiquette.
Why would you remove a cultural perception from its context? You’re the the one applying it absolutely.
Okay, I can see the point you’re making. But if that’s the case the order of the ritual seems wrong.
For example:
You: “Have you got a pen I can borrow?”
Me: “Here you go.”
You: “Thank you.”
Me: “You’re welcome.”
If the “You’re welcome” is supposed to imply “You’re welcome to the use of this pen” then I should say it as I handed the pen to you not in response to you thanking me for it. But you’d never see the following exchange:
You: “Have you got a pen I can borrow?”
Me: “You’re welcome.”
You: “Thank you.”
This seems like the best approach. If we could trace the phrase back to its earliest use, we could presumably see it evolving from its original literal sense to its current ritual usage.
The problem is that the 1877 and 1919 examples cited are already using the phrase in its ritual sense and the 1836 cite uses it in its literal sense but not in response to somebody offering thanks.
I found a book from 1842 (the handwritten note says that version is from 1853), The Old Sea Captain
For nothing, actually. De is possibly the Spanish preposition which has more different translations into English: of, from, for, on, in… Translating it as “of” is more likely to be wrong than right.
I think Andy L is correct in his interpretation. Myself, I don’t know crap but I read a lot. Used to, (Middle Ages) when a traveler needed to impose on someone for shelter and food, that homeowner was compelled to provide it…as he might find himself in the same predictament sometime. It was “the law of the land.” “You’re welcome” may be short for “You are welcome to whatever I have that you may need.”
I got jumped for my feelings about this a while back. When a clerk (and I understand your difference) answers “No problem” to a Thank You, like they’re doing you a favor, I want to say “I should hope not, as you’re only doing your job.” I “get” generational laxities (???) but when did me spending my money with you become a “burden” I hope you won’t hold against me?
“No problem” does not show appreciation but is polarizing.
As I’ve said, I feel the exact opposite is the case. A person saying “no problem” is telling you that he doesn’t feel he’s doing you a favor - that he regards whatever he did to be of such small consequence that nothing is owed to him as a result.
But I think these posts illustrate the issue from my OP. “No problem” is a relatively new greeting and it hasn’t become common enough to be purely ritual. People feel it means something, even if they debate what the meaning is. And there must have been a similar period when “you’re welcome” engendered the same response. People must have been saying things like, “I thanked a servant today and he said I was welcome. Who did he think he was? It’s my house so how can he welcome me to it?”
Right. Exactly: “No thanks are necessary.” That’s what all these things mean – No problem, no worries, no bother, not a problem, it’s nothing, de nada, you’re alright, you’re welcome, don’t mention it, it’s my pleasure, etc.
But they all start out having meaning and only become meaningless ritual phrases through the passage of time. If you don’t believe this, try starting a new ritual response. When people say “thank you” respond “it’s free”. The fact that you’re using a non-ritual response will cause people to stop and wonder what you meant by that and many of them will ask you why you said it.
Is that what people do when they hear an unfamiliar phrase? Or do they take the context into account and realize that it’s just a new variation on a standard ritual?
I’m not saying you’re going to get slapped for saying it or anything. But people will notice you said it and think about what you said. That isn’t the response to ritual phrases, which by definition don’t require any thought.
You might want to call the O.E.D.‘s editors’ attention to the Black Beauty citation. That would push back their date. The Boys Life quote comes 10 years after the current cited first reference.
The Every Body’s Album reference to seems to more along the lines of “welcoming” a person to a victory as one would welcome one to a home.
= = = = =
I am not surprised to discover that there was no earlier reply to “thank you,” I just note that I have not yet found one in 18th or 19th century literature.
Done.
Just adding to the references: A Baseline?
This 1711 play Love’s Riddle uses the word “Welcome” eight times across two pages. It seems to be more of an expression of acceptance than hospitality, if I am reading it correctly. Which I may not be and the distinction is blurry anyway.
The Works of Mr. Abraham Cowley ...: Consisting of Those which Were Formerly ... - Abraham Cowley - Google Books
Also, I thanked workers at Home Depot twice the other evening and received no response. That’s data, not a complaint: the interaction was normal and I wouldn’t have noted it except I had been reading this thread earlier. Also, I said it as I turned to leave, so calling out a response might have been odd. It occurs to me that “You’re welcome” is slightly formal and the US has been trending towards informality since WWI.