Osama Bin Laden; a Long Contempaltion

Osama Bin Laden

I hope I am right in placing this in Great Debates, although I do not wish to start argument.

I have recently completed reading ‘Through Our Enemies’ Eyes; Osama Bin Laden, Radical Islam and the Future of America’ by Anonymous (supposedly a CIA official), rarely have I read such a seminal, paradigm-changing book.

First off though, notice the correct use of the apostrophe for the plural possessive in the title. Let’s hear it for someone who can write in English.

The thesis of this book is simple. We are misreading OBL et al by trying to fit his beliefs, behaviors and intentions into our Western framework of thought. Arabs, and radical Islamists are very, very different from most of us.

When OBL says something like “I want to destroy America,” he really means “I want to destroy America.” He does not mean “I want to hurt America,” or “I want America to change its present course in the Islam/Israel dispute,” nor does he means any other thing. He means what he says.

The author makes the powerful and illustrative comparison to John Brown in American history.

(For my non-American friends, John Brown was an American abolitionist who lived in the American state of Kansas during the run-up to our Civil War. Having decided for religious reasons that the time for talking about slavery was over, he and like-minded people began to slaughter their slave-holding neighbors.

They burned towns, massacred families and sacrificed their own children to The Cause.

Eventually he captured the Federal arsenal at Harper’s Ferry, Virginia where he was captured, tried and executed.)

John Brown failed to free the slaves. But by staging spectacular acts of terrorism, he brought his grievances to the forefront of public debate and so help launch a massive war of cultures that led to his objective, albeit posthumously.

Think of that parallel!

OBL is not a head job (except as you might consider anyone who honestly thinks he is right is a nut). He is not after money or power or any material objective. He is after a victory for God himself as OBL et al sees God.

He really wants things like the return of Spain, central Europe, Israel and Central Asia. The southern Philippines and a hunk of China would be nice too. He wants to pull down the present governments of the region and replaced them with … Well he at least wants to replace them.

While he (and people like him) might be willing to accept less as a tactical victory, real compromise is as unthinkable to OBL as it would have been to John Brown.

A temporary truce might be acceptable, but only as a way-station towards total victory.

OBL’s own life does not matter to him. The same can be said of his followers. He is willing to do really nasty things in order to further a Devine cause. He can be deterred from the use of nukes (or whatever) as God himself has directed that all weapons be used to defend and further the cause of Islam.

He has (as Hitler said about himself) the serenity of a sleepwalker.

(Gee, I am on my third page. I wonder if the board will let me post something so large. In any case, I would welcome your comments.)

Paul, those are all interesting observations, but I’m not sure what the debate is…

Perhaps he should have added in “Does this seem like a reasonable analysis by this author of OBL”?

This contradicts your:

John Brown didn’t want to destroy America like OBL, but instead launch a massive war of cultures that led to his objective.

Reading in context I assume you meant “He can’t be deterred…”

That aside, I haven’t read the book, but you haven’t reported anything that I haven’t already considered. Its scary. Now the US is a long way off from Osama bin Laden, but if he and his cohorts get the US out of Saudi Arabia and neighbouring states, and get control of the oil supply by simply destroying it, He’ll have America by the Carotid artery.

Now project that ruthless uncompromising radicalism to the Palistinian factions waging terror in Israel, and you can only conclude that the time of the Jews living in Palistine is over. Especially when OBL succeeds.

If he does.

Through Our Enemies’ Eyes; Osama Bin Laden, Radical Islam and the Future of America - Here’s a good review of the book.

The book is generaly regarded as well thought out and a good corrective to the sloppy analysis others have indulged in. The main caveat about the book is that while well thought out, it is still the product of a mainly desk bound, long term western bureaucrat sifting through information coming to him through others, and that “Anon” has a tendency to take pronouncements by some Islamic players as hard factual statements of core revolutionary philosophy, when they are in fact highly political statements that should be viewed with a more cynical eye.

Umm. Yes. This is news? To whom? I hate the Us/Them thinking, and I don’t beleive it for a minute unless you use it to compare RADICAL Islamists to the general public.

Yep RADICAL Islamists beliefs,behaviors and intentions don’t fit into the Western framework. They don’t fit into the modern world at all. East or West. This is not news. The actions of the RADICAL Islamist is sociopathic.

Would he?

I know not many people agree with me, but I’m of the opinion that if we leave the radicals the hell alone, they’ll leave us the hell alone. I really don’t see them as an expansionist, imperialistic culture that is going to try to spread a’la early 20th century Germany.

If all the oil in the middle east were destroyed it might just be a blessing in disguise. We could get out of there and end the seemingly insoluble culture-clash between “us and them”.

It would push us to devote vast amounts of resources to finding an immediate alternative fuel source, which would be cleaner, better for the environment, and hopefully cheaper, after the expensive switch. In the meantime we could use Alaskan, Texan, Russian, and Argentinean oil.

It would be hard to sit and watch from afar as Middle Easterners continue to fight and kill each other over who owns what holy land, but our presence there is certainly not helping anything, and in my opinion is likely making things much worse.

Middle Easterners do not like us and, frankly, I’m totally fine with that. There’s something about everyone you can find to not like if you choose to look at the world that way. We as Americans have to remember that they aren’t over here trying to change our lives and make us conform to their customs, economical and governmental practices, and worldview. We are in the water with the shark.

All this, as phrased, is true(*). Really though his aims, recruits and financing are Middle East based and based on the grievances of the Middle East. To wit : The Israel “situation”, virtually all the revolutionary reaction to the current Arab Governments and now, the Iraq and Afghanistan stuff. Chechnya and the Philippines have their own homegrown radical Islamicists which are properly adjunct and look to finance from him, but the “affiliates” or “subsidiaries” tags they are often given is inaccurate.

(*)I think OBL sees himself as God’s Prophet and as such, must die a glorious and exalted death and avoid capture at all costs. He is THE MESSENGER. The line “his own life doesn’t matter” does not accurately reflect his view. His own life is actually of paramount importance and it may be God’s WILL that he end as a Martyr that is OK – but to be avoided until inevitable

What does he want Spain, Central Europe, Israel and Central Asia to return to?

Why did you trail off? What does he want to replace them with?

Those areas were all under Islamic rule, and so (to OBL’s way of thinking) should be returned to Islamic rule.

The idea of overthrowing existing ME governments is to replace them with something else. I simply suspect that something else will also fail to pass muster and those regimes too would have to be destroyed more or less forever.

Being a revolutionary is fun, but having to organize things to get the trash collected is a bore.

Take notice that when OBL and other Muslims refer to god they are referring to Allah, the god of Islam.
There is a profound difference between Jehovah God, of the Jews and Christians and Allah, the god of Muslims.

Only to the Christian fundamentalists, it seems.

God, the First Cause, Allah, the Supreme Architect of the Universe, the Cat in the Hat, it is not at all clear to me how anyone can say when I call God the wrong person picks up at the other end.

PinGear, let me elaborate on what I am trying to say, as you are my target audience.

You are misunderstanding OBL, thinking he is somehow not a Godly man, not sincerely devoted to the cause of Right as he sees it. Simply put, you underestimate and misunderstand the man. Underestimating the Other Guy is a rookie mistake.

This leads to wrong decisions, to mistakes and to disaster.

In order to solve any problem, you need to clearly understand it. You seem to think that because OBL’s conception of God is different from your own that he is somehow a primitive.

This sort of thinking has and will cost lives. I urge you to change it.

To each his own.
OBL sees the world as he sees it. My world view is as I see it.
You too have a world view that seems to be closer to OBL’s view than to mine.
I most assuredly do not understimate him nor those of the same view.
Paul in Saudi You write as an apologist for OBL.
As stated before Allah can not be equated to Jehova God. Each is radically different entity from the other. Not one and the same.

Hmmm…Yet as been pointed out before many orthodox Jews believe, based on the writings of the great Jewish theologian Maimonides, that Jews and Muslims share the same God, but Christians ( at least trinitarian Christians, which would be most of them ) do not. And Muslims generally believe that Jews, Christians and Muslims all share the same God.

Just depends on your POV, I suppose ;).

  • Tamerlane

[QUOTE=PinGear]

Paul in Saudi You write as an apologist for OBL.
QUOTE]

Oh, and I am definitely not seeing this in anything Paul wrote. Care to elaborate?

  • Tamerlane

I ammost certainly not close to OBL’s POV, but as I plow through (of plough thru) these books I picked up at home I am more and more impressed by how formidable an enemy this guy is.

I think we are underestimating him and the movement he represents. I suspect we are looking at another century of war.

Bummer.