Other ways to Support Life besides Water and Air(Space)?

I’m not the sharpest cookie in the jar, so forgive me if I don’t articulate my question properly, but feel free to help or offer a suggestion if you see fit.

Fish live in the water, that’s their environment, man lives on air, that’s our environment.

I haven’t lost anyone yet? Ok cool.

Suppose fish communicated with each other, and there were smart fish, and feeble-minded fish. The sharp ones are trying to figure out “what it’s all about”.

They swim around, wondering how far the universe goes, but they are limited to water. Perhaps when they swim to the top, they can see the sun, and they can see blurs of land and the dry world, but they can’t see enough to realize there is another existence out of the water.

Here we are (Man) we are stuck on land, we send robots to Mars, and Surveyors to Saturn’s moons, all in an effort to figure out how big our universe is and answer the question “what’s it all about?”

Just like fish live in water, and we live on dry ground with air all around us, is it possible if you travel far out into space, there will be a new dimension? Something completely different than what we live in?

You can’t really explain the concept of what it’s like to be dry (to a fish), so perhaps there’s another set of conditions out there that we have no way of imagining, but it’s not unlike anything we know.

And just like a fish getting to “dry” is impossible (until they are caught, but then they die, so it doesn’t matter), maybe under the current circumstances we are in the same boat.

I’ve been pondering life for a few years now, I spend a lot of time looking at the stars, and it’s frustrating to feel like the little fish.

No nitpicking allowed for answer, forget about flying fish and stuff like that. I’m just wondering if there really could be some other environment that is completely unknown to us which supports life, but we have no way of knowing.

This is in no way a religion question.

Thanks

Gus

I suppose water is to air as air is to the vacuum of space, sort of.

It’s concievable that organisms could exist that could cope with life in a near-vaccum - that is to say that we could probably design such organisms on paper. What’s difficult to concieve is how complex organisms could arise from scratch in a near vacuum.

That does sound like the sort of thing that your hypothetical intelligent fish might say, but I don’t think so - I think that if a race of intelligent waterborne organisms existed, they would recognise the possibility of sustained existence out of the water more readily than we calculate the possibility of sustained existence in vacuum.

Also… much of the difficult and innovative development of life on Earth is believed to have taken place in water, but the transition from water to dry land is considerably easier - in purely mechanical terms - than the transition from atmosphere to vacuum - all you have to do is flop out onto the beach, or be stranded there by a wave - leaving the atmosphere requires considerable effort, so the opportunity to test if your mutations make you able to survive there doesn’t happen all that readily.

You just lost me. Most fish live in water at least part of the time, but most surface dwelling fish also leave the water for at least brief periods of time. Moroever most surface dwelling fish prey on organisms that they know leave the water for indefinite periods.

So the idea that any fish won’t realise there is more to it makes no sense even at the most basic level. If humans had routinely seen cats and dogs float off into the starry night sky then there is no possible way that we could fail to realise there was an existence in space. And this is precisely the type of phenomenon that surface dwelling fish see all the time.

Not really. We don’t explore other planets to work out how big the universe is. We arguably build radio telescopes for that purpose but we do that precisely because we know so much that we can use “static” from distant suns to guess the answer. IOW we do it because we know so much exists out there, not because we are incapble of knowing.

No, it’s not possible without comepletely re-writing everyhting we know about physics. IOW to the extent that we cna say anything with certainty we can say that this is certainly impissible.

In a nutshell you can never travel faster than the speed of light, and ther is a limit to how far we can travel away from the Earth even at lightspeed before the destination is moving away from us at lightspeed. We know what is within that volume of space because we can see it, and it is 99.999999% vacuum with tiny pockets of matter.

You can’t explain anything to a fish they are too dumb. If a fish had human intelligence then you woudl be able to explain being dry to a fish just as you could explain dying of thrist and suffocation to a human.

If we are playing the perhaps game then perhaps the world was created last Thursday by an intelligent tangerine as part of a clever gambit in its ceaseless game against the Great Green Arkleseizure.

This sort of specualtion isn’t science, it isn’t even philosophy, it;s just letting your imagination run wild with no refernce point of any sort.

But we aren’t like actual fish and we aren’t like the fish you imagine, which are nothing like real fish. We can ‘see’ the universe, we know it exists and we know that whiel there are othe rplanets there isn;t any sort of celestial sphere that we float inside of that we could ever detect.

Pointing out that any fish that can see the air has also seen creatures move through the air isn’t nitpicking.

If we have no way of knowing about the unknown then of course we can’t know about the unknown. You are simply begging the question and engaging in pointless speculation with no ground rules.

I think all the OP is asking is: Could life exist outside of an Earthlike environment that we might initially/casually consider hostile to life, or sterile and incapable of supporting it.

Well, bacteria can certainly survive hard vaccuum. The only problem is that bacteria can’t grow in hard vaccuum, and they can’t evolve in hard vaccuum, and to the extent that we understand the origin of life, they certainly can’t originate in vaccuum.

All living organisms that we know are actually very closely related on a biochemical level. We’re all the same sort of life…we use DNA which makes RNA, which makes proteins using ribosomes, we have phosolipid cell membranes, all DNA codes for the same amino acids in the same way, we all use water as a solvent and on and on. Even bacteria that can live in boiling water use the same biochemistry, they just use it in different ways.

So imagining silicon life, or life in an ammonia or methane ocean is kind of difficult, because all earth life is pretty much alike, and all clearly related to each other. And we don’t know if radically different life is possible. There are pretty good reasons to believe that your classic science fiction-style silicon life form is impossible. But we just don’t know, and the discovery of the first non-earth life will answer a lot of questions about what sorts of things are possible.

Some broad possibilities:

Non-earth life is discovered, and it’s almost identical biochemically to earth life. Which means that it probably shares a common ancestor with earth life, which means that panspermia is confirmed. Maybe earth life arose on Mars rather than earth, and traveled from Mars to Earth on a meteor. Or vice versa. Or life arose in comets.

Non-earth life is discovered, and it’s pretty similar biochemically in broad strokes to earth life, but with fundamental differences. This indicates that life can arise independently in different environments but converges to a few optimum solutions. It uses a molecule very similar to DNA with a few slightly different functional groups, it has different codons, it uses proteins but a different suite of amino acids, it uses molecules with an opposite chirality, and so on.

Then we get into the weird cases. Ammonia life, silicon life, clay life, non-DNA life, life with radically different organization. Life that exists in gas giants, in stars, in hard vacuum, in liquid helium, life on a radically different scale than Life As We Know It.

As for the philosophical speculation in the OP, the best we can do is realize that we’re human beings, and realize that our brains evolved because they helped our ancestors survive and reproduce as social primates on the African savanna, they didn’t evolve to allow us to understand the mysteries of the universe. In a certain sense we know that human beings are finite creatures, and so we’ll never understand everything.

But we can also understand that a species that didn’t have eyes could still understand light as a phenomemon, even if they couldn’t percieve it directly. We can’t percieve x-rays, gamma rays, radio waves, or any other portion of the electromagnetic spectrum except a tiny slice that just happens to correspond to the peak output of our sun. A species that lived in water can still understand air, and could understand that organisms flew in the air and lived on land, because they could percieve them directly, as Blake points out. We humans have no intuitive understanding of how matter and energy and time and space behave at very high speeds and at very small scales, but we’re able to write equations that describe that behavior, even if that behavior goes against every common sense notion we have.

So we can imagine a species that uses sonar instead of vision, and then see that species would have difficulty understanding stars, because they wouldn’t have seen tiny dots in the night sky since the dawn of their civilization. But they could eventually develop a theory of the electromagnetic spectrum, and they could build optical telescopes and discover a weird result…millions of point sources emitting o-radiation, their name for the mysterious phenomemon of “light”. And this is exactly what happened to us when we started scanning the universe at wavelengths other than visual…x-ray emitters, radio wave emitters, gamma ray emitters, UV emitters, IR emitters, and so forth, all completely new, all completely mysterious and unexpected, because the human eye can’t directly percieve these emissions. So we might have had a head start in getting the idea to scan the sky for emitters, because we wanted to figure out what those tiny dots called “stars” were, but even if we were blind we would have discovered them at the same time we started doing non-optical astronomy, because optical astronomy would be just one more slice of the spectrum to us.

And we can then speculate about the opposite, what sorts of phenomeon are we not understanding because we don’t have sonar? Well, we’ve just invented ultrasound imaging, but that would be a commonplace for a sonar-using species, from the very beginnings of their civilization they’d be able to use their natural senses to see below the surfaces of objects. But as far as I can see there’s nothing fundamental that we, as non-sonar-users would be totally incapable of understanding, ever. Just as I don’t think there would be phenomenon that non-visual species would be incapable of understanding, ever. They might not understand them on an intuitive common sense everyday level, but their scientists could easily explain how light works, and how these strange creatures have organs with nerves that are stimulated in the presence of radiation of a particular wavelength, and this allows the creatures to construct a three dimensional model of their surroundings. And those scientists would theorize that because EM radiation can travel very long distances in certain circumstances that the creatures might be able to image objects that are very far away, and so on.

There’s plenty of science fiction written about life in other environments, with various degrees of science behind them. Sometimes it’s of the Sunday-Supplement variety that fastens onto one fact and fastens onto one fact to extrapolate from ( sometimes wildly off the mark) – “Silicon is right below carbon on the Periodic table, therefore there ought to be a Silicate-based “organic” life, just as we have carbon-based life.” Lots of this dated back to the thirties. Read Stanley g. weinbaum’s “A Martian Odyssey”, for instance, with its tentacled being who builds pyramids of Silicon Dioxide around itself (the product of its respiration, analogus to our CO[sub]2[/sub], only SiO[sub]2[/sub] is a solid, hence the piles of rocks). Or “A candle will burn in a Chlorine Atmosphere, therefore a chlorine-based organic life is possible, as we have oxygen-based life”. Lotsa SF from the 1940s and 1950s used that, few pursuiing it farther than the chlorine atmosphere. But Hal Clement was working on a concept called “bleachworld” before he died, in which he was laboring to put a chlorine-based life economy on a firmer basis. I don’t think he finished t, or did anything with it.

Hal Clement explored a lot of non-human environments in his stories, which were well thought-out. He had life in extremely high gravity, or at very high temperatures, or in the absence of high-temperature suns like ours (life that didn’t tolerate UV or visible light well), or high-vacuum planets. Writers have speculated about life made of different chemicals than ours, though in simple environments. Or about life on the gas gants (Clarke’s “A Meeting with Medusa”, for instance), or life organized around electromagnetic field entities in space (several, but Hoyle’s The Black mCloud, for example.)
People are better equyipped than fish, for lots of reasons, to explore our environment, and we’ve done quite a good job of looking out into space, deducing a huge amount from what we see, and compensating for our limitations. Possible fish scientists could discover Snell’s Law and compensate for the refraction they experience in looking through the air=water interface. They could study chemistry and figure out how the upper world works, and what fire is. They could even build vessels and suits to allow them to travel into the air. Then they’d certainly know what it’s like (They could if they had arms, or similar manipulative means, at least. Read James Blish’s classic story “Surface Tension” about water-bound humanoids who learn about the world of air outside their native water)

Our biggest limitation is on our imaginations, in imagining very different things that lie outside our experience. Certainly we can speculate about this, but there’s no guarantee we’ll think of everything. But the OP seems to imagine a lack of information alongside that speculation, and I just want to point out that we do have quite a bit of information to guide our speculation. Intelligent fish, or merfolk with hands, probably would, too.

back at the beginning of the 20th century Charles Fort speculated about weird creatures living in the upper atmosphere. arthur Conan Doyle wrote about the same thing in one story (I don’t know if he read Fort). Certainly we know such things don’t exisdt now – we’ve been flying around now for over a century – but, even in Fort’s day, it was a silly speculation.

Yeah, science fiction used to be lousy with chlorine breathers. And chemically, chlorine really could take the place of oxygen in a biosphere, so the notion isn’t completely wrongheaded. And it’s a cool example of really alien life.

The problem isn’t the chemistry of chlorine, it’s the nuclear physics of chlorine. When you look at the composition of the Earth’s crust, or any planet/moon, or the universe itself for that matter, oxygen is one of the most common elements. After hydrogen and helium, C N and O are the most common elements. And chlorine is waaaaaaaaaaaay down on the list. You’d have to posit some weird mechanism to enrich a planet’s crust with chlorine before chlorine breathing life could evolve. And not just a little more chlorine, you’d need many orders of magnitude more chlorine to form a chlorine atmosphere. And there doesn’t seem to be any plausible way for this to happen.

Thanks everyone, I enjoyed reading all the posts.

Gus

In designing the Biology wing of the California Science Center, my old boss, the late Dr. Dave Combs, and his colleagues came up with a definition of the activities that all living things do:

Take in energy
Take in other supplies and eliminate waste
Reproduce themselves
Defend themselves
Respond to their environment

Our understanding of what can be alive is limited by our understanding of how, and in what environments, these things can be done.