Our freedom is on it's last legs.

[Scylla]

@Harborwolf

Since Finn isn’t likely to address this, I will. Where do you get this idea from? You raised the possibility that the people who died in U.S. custody were beaten before hand. That’s a stretch. Wouldn’t it be more likely that our forces would take prisoners in bad shape to recieve medical attention?

Why do you consider this a stretch? My cite shows that that exact thing happened today.

As for the medical attention, it might not be available, and not everybody might live or some might already be dead despite best efforts. We would not be responsible for those deaths, yet, we would do autopsies. Those autopsies would be available under the FOIA, and they would be identical to what Finn has showed as “proof” of US forces torturing.

If we didn’t, then we are at least partially responsible for their deaths. I am aware that this is different from torturing them to death, but only by a degree or two. It certainly shows the care we are giving to our prisoners is suspect and places torture within the realm of possibility.

Medical attention might not always be available, particularly in battle conditions, it might not always be successful.

Of course, that’s a sideshow. I’m curious how you came to the idea that Finn would knowingly lie about something like that. You asked for proof of dozens and he came up with proof of slightly more than a dozen.

No. He did not. He came up with proof that the US had performed autopsies on detainees who’s deaths had been ruled a homicide. That is a different thing than proof our forces had tortured them.

That’s not a big enough stretch to back up your claim of him being a liar. The article he cited backed up at least a portion of his claim.

The article is based on those reports. It cites them. They do not support Finn’s conclusion. They do not support the article’s conclusion.

The only doubts raised were yours and you have not provided a cite to back up your claims. A government official backing up your idea of the story would be acceptable.

I did provide a cite showing that my exact scenario had in fact occured. On the other hand, I’m not the one making the positive claim that US forces tortured and killed dozens. I don’t need a cite, nor am I required to disprove it. Finn made the statement. It’s to him to prove it.

The story of the prisoners in the care of Iraqi officials does not count unless you can prove that the prisoners in Finns cite were in the care of Iraqi officials before they came into our hands.

Absolutely not. I don’t have to prove they weren’t tortured by US forces. Finn has to prove they were. There are many possibilities. You don’t get to just choose the one you like. My scenario is equally likely if not more so than Finn’s.

Lastly, “or else?” Let’s not start something like that on an internet message board please. It’s silly to say the least.

“Or else” I’ll report his post, and tattle. Yes, it’s silly.

[Scylla]

@Banquet Bear

…you convieniently forgot your mutual decision to not read or engage in any of Finnagain’s posts, which meant that, despite a plethora of cites that may or may not defend his position, you did not read. So yes, Finnagain did make a serious attempt to defend his statement, you however chose not to read it.

It took me a fair amount of time to work through Finn’s first cite. I felt no compulsion to work through the second batch since he said he wasn’t participating with me. When he said that, I considered our discussion finished. If there’s proof in those other cites, feel free to dig it out.

…well, what is your standard of proof? Are eyewitnessess good enough? Does there have to be a court conviction? A senate enquiry? Would you care to define your “standard of proof” so we could seek to meet it?

Proof is proof. If you have proof than it should speak for itself. I mentioned before that 95% certainty is a good standard for science.

…do you mean “the very thing happened” in the case cited originally by Finnagain? Are you saying the prisoners in the ACLU cited case are the same as the ones in your cited case?

No. I’m saying the very same scenario, I described as an alternate interpretation to Finn’s interpretation, did in fact occur. This demonstrates that my interpretation is viable.

…or maybe he has read the Human Rights Watch Reports, read the testimonies of those who have been released, and made his deductions from the pattern of evidence.

I don’t care what he did. What I care is that he didn’t provide proof, like he said he would.

You did read his cites, didn’t you? It looks like, that despite saying you wouldn t engage him in debate again in this thread, you decided to do it anyway, so why not read his cites?

That’s false. I never said I wouldn’t debate him. I said I wouldn’t respond to his cites if he wasn’t going to defend them. If he wants to debate I’ll be happy to debate, and respond to his cites.

…your rebutal against FinnAgain’s evidence appears to be "well, there maybe another reason. Is that your only rebutal?

What else do I need?

He shows autopsies of people dead by homicide and assumes we killed them and we tortured them. Assuming your conclusion is a classical fallacy. I need no further rebuttal to such weak logic.

…umm, you forgot to say In My Humble Opinion. The evidence convinces me, and thousands of others like me. As to the challenge I offered up earlier… got any evidence on the Guantanemo prisoners yet? I’ll make it easier, how about proof for six of the prisoners?

Proof of what? What statement did I make concerning the Gitmo prisoners that I need to defend?

…not speaking for anyone else, but no its not okay to fabricate lies about your soldiers or anyone elses. Its a good thing that FinnAgain never did that then, isn’t it?

So where’s the proof of the 24 people the US forces tortured to death?

[Harborwolf]

@Scylla

Why do you consider this a stretch? My cite shows that that exact thing happened today.

No it doesn’t. It shows that the Iraqis mistreated prisoners in their custody. If we had promptly taken those prisoners into custody and they had died under interrogation, then you would have something.

@Scylla

As for the medical attention, it might not be available, and not everybody might live or some might already be dead despite best efforts. We would not be responsible for those deaths, yet, we would do autopsies. Those autopsies would be available under the FOIA, and they would be identical to what Finn has showed as “proof” of US forces torturing.

Medical attention might not always be available, particularly in battle conditions, it might not always be successful.

They died in U.S. custody. From the article. Bolding mine.

The American Civil Liberties Union today made public an analysis of new and previously released autopsy and death reports of detainees held in U.S. facilities in Iraq and Afghanistan, many of whom died while being interrogated.

They are in U.S. facilities. Why wouldn’t medical care be available if we were keeping prisoners there?

@Scylla

No. He did not. He came up with proof that the US had performed autopsies on detainees who’s deaths had been ruled a homicide. That is a different thing than proof our forces had tortured them.

They died in U.S. custody in U.S. facilities. Some died during interrogation.

Here’s another quote.

A detainee was smothered to death during an interrogation by Military Intelligence on November 26, 2003, in Al Qaim, Iraq. A previously released autopsy report, that appears to be of General Mowhoush, lists “asphyxia due to smothering and chest compression” as the cause of death and cites bruises from the impact with a blunt object. New documents specifically record the circumstances of death as “Q by MI, died during interrogation.”

Can you explain how he died of “asphyxia due to smothering and chest compression” at the hands of someone else during an interrogation by U.S. forces?

@Scylla

The article is based on those reports. It cites them. They do not support Finn’s conclusion. They do not support the article’s conclusion.

See the above quote from the article.

@Scylla

I did provide a cite showing that my exact scenario had in fact occured. On the other hand, I’m not the one making the positive claim that US forces tortured and killed dozens. I don’t need a cite, nor am I required to disprove it. Finn made the statement. It’s to him to prove it.

Again. You did not. I asked for a quote from our government backing up your side of the story. That should not be too hard to come by.

@Scylla

Absolutely not. I don’t have to prove they weren’t tortured by US forces. Finn has to prove they were. There are many possibilities. You don’t get to just choose the one you like. My scenario is equally likely if not more so than Finn’s.

Another quote. Bolding mine.

A 27-year-old Iraqi male died while being interrogated by Navy Seals on April 5, 2004, in Mosul, Iraq. During his confinement he was hooded, flex-cuffed, sleep deprived and subjected to hot and cold environmental conditions, including the use of cold water on his body and hood. The exact cause of death was “undetermined” although the autopsy stated that hypothermia may have contributed to his death.

We can debate whether or not this actually counts as torture till we both turn blue in the face, which may not be long in your case as I suspect you are part smurf. I think we can certainly agree that this created less than pleasant conditions and, if not forbidden outright by the Geneva convention, certainly would be frowned upon.

@Scylla

“Or else” I’ll report his post, and tattle. Yes, it’s silly.

Glad we can agree on something.

[Scylla]

@Hamlet

Is it the magic 24 number that makes your point? If it were 12, you’d still be in the right? Or 6? Or 3? Or even one?

It’s no magic number Hamlet. I didn’t choose it. Finn said “dozens.” That’s at least 24. My point is that wingnut assholes are fabricating slander and other wingnut assholes are beleiving it. If enough people beleive it, than it doesn’t matter if it’s fabricated.

Finn’s statement is a damaging slander than it is not demonstrably true.

You and this administration are trying so hard to blame the liberals for something…anything, that you’re willing to overlook the actions of our government (whether it be mistreatment of the Koran, torture of prisoners, or homicides while in custody).

No Hamlet. I’m not willing to overlook these things. Not at all. My point is that you’re saying they happened doesn’t make it so. I am disgusted with irresponsible fabrications of scumbags made for political or rhetorical effect.

What I’m not willing to overlook is the fact that a bunch of scumbags are actively making this shit up and pretending it’s true for political or rhetorical effect. I think somebody that makes these statements needs to be held accountable. They have a responsibility to prove they are true before they just make them up or repeat them.

It absolutely boggles my mind that, apparently, you are more upset that there were only 14 rather than 24 homicides, than the fact that there were 14 homicides.

Who killed them? Show me who killed them and then I will know where to place blame. The autopsy reports do not show who killed them. I looked.

They don’t show you either. They don’t show Finn. The information is not in there. It’s just not there.

So, when you say that US forces tortured and killed them, I know you, or Finn, are full of shit because that information is not to be found in your cites. You’re making it up.

You’d rather yell about the liberal media, such as the Newsweek story about the Koran (which was actually supported by evidence), than deal with the crimes perpetrated in your name, such as Gitmo and Abu Ghraib. I find that kind of thinking, that kind of looking at the world, absolutely atrocious.

I haven’t said shit about Abu Grahib. It’s a substantiated responsible story, and I have no issue with it.

[elucidator]

@Scylla

…So where’s the proof of the 24 people the US forces tortured to death?

Maybe he really doesn’t get it.

One. Is. Too. Many.

Let me put this in cynical terms you can grasp. Whenever we abuse a prisoner, we increase the level of enmity. His enmity, his relatives, his friends. Of course, if he is innocent of previous enmity, its a pretty good bet he’s an enemy now. Wouldn’t you? Hell, you hate people you don’t even know for thier opinions, I think its pretty safe to say that if John Kerry waterboarded you, or your brother, or your children… you’d hate him even more than you do now.

If the object of war is to reduce the number of your enemies, isn’t a policy that cannot help but increase thier number pretty fucking stupid?

Can’t kill 'em all, Scylla. Simply can’t. Sooner or later, we seek a way to live with people who were our enemies. Even a hairy chested thumper of a message board macho man, who does not shrink from growling threats in virtual space…even such a warrior as this has limitations.

[FinnAgain]

@Hamlet

It absolutely boggles my mind that, apparently, you are more upset that there were only 14 rather than 24 homicides, than the fact that there were 14 homicides.

I have to apologize to the gathered Dopers, I spend a lot of time reading, and I don’t bookmark all of my cites. I’m not sure if I already posted this one in the thread or not, but I believe 26 would be a more accurate tally instead of 24.

[

WASHINGTON, March 15 - At least 26 prisoners have died in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2002 in what Army and Navy investigators have concluded or suspect were acts of criminal homicide, according to military officials.

The number of confirmed or suspected cases is much higher than any accounting the military has previously reported. A Pentagon report sent to Congress last week cited only six prisoner deaths caused by abuse, but that partial tally was limited to what the author, Vice Adm. Albert T. Church III of the Navy, called “closed, substantiated abuse cases” as of last September.

The new figure of 26 was provided by the Army and Navy this week after repeated inquiries. In 18 cases reviewed by the Army and Navy, investigators have now closed their inquiries and have recommended them for prosecution or referred them to other agencies for action, Army and Navy officials said. Eight cases are still under investigation but are listed by the Army as confirmed or suspected criminal homicides, the officials said.

](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/16/politics/16abuse.html?ex=1132203600&en=7845fdf403cd5db8&ei=5070&ex=1132030800&en=d5e7e16b9f2feedb&ei=5070&pagewanted=all)

Or, in another words:
Why does the Pentagon hate America and our soldiers?

[Scylla]

@Harborwolf

No it doesn’t. It shows that the Iraqis mistreated prisoners in their custody. If we had promptly taken those prisoners into custody and they had died under interrogation, then you would have something.

Why would they have to die under interrogation to make my cite meaningul. Are you suggesting that the autopsies Finn cites say they died during interrogation? The one I read didn’t.

They died in U.S. custody. From the article. Bolding mine.

Yeah, that’s what the article says. It doesn’t appear to be substantiated by the autopsy reports though.

They are in U.S. facilities. Why wouldn’t medical care be available if we were keeping prisoners there?

The one’s today were neglected and it didn’t become a us facility until we took over. I assume that when we took over we didn’t instantly have a hospital with us.

I don’t know what quality of care was practically available and cannot pass judgement on whether or not it was withheld. Neither can you.

Here’s another quote.
Can you explain how he died of “asphyxia due to smothering and chest compression” at the hands of someone else during an interrogation by U.S. forces?

I’m glad you brought that up. I saw that, and I looked for it. It’s listed on this page:

http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/

According to that it’s documents 3220-27 and 3305. Those documents though are not available to look at on that page for some reason.

So, I clicked on the link that says “More Torture Documents Released Under FOIA” at the top of the page.

From that page I clicked on “documents the government did not want you to see.”

That page brought me back to the first page where the document wasn’t available.

So, since I can’t actually look at the document and see the context, I can’t really comment on it.

Take a look and see if you can find it. I did see that one, and did look.

Again. You did not. I asked for a quote from our government backing up your side of the story. That should not be too hard to come by.

Then get it yourself. I thought I made it clear that I didn’t find your request reasonable.

We can debate whether or not this actually counts as torture till we both turn blue in the face, which may not be long in your case as I suspect you are part smurf. I think we can certainly agree that this created less than pleasant conditions and, if not forbidden outright by the Geneva convention, certainly would be frowned upon.

I didn’t look for the autopsy report on that one. I was a little frustrated that the previous one cited wasn’t available that I could find, and I got tired of doing Finn’s work for him.

Let’s see if that report is available:

Looks like “003260 -003261” or “013279 - 013288”

Here we go:

http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/3260.pdf

Nope never mind. That doesn’t say anything useful and I don’t see any of the other ones. So, it doesn’t look like that one’s available either. Again, feel free to look for yourself, and let me know if you find it.

I was getting a little tired yesterday of dicking around on that cite, and, I have to admit to being a little suspicious that while they have lots of documents available, the salacious ones from which they excerpt don’t seem to be available.

Or, maybe I’m just to dumb to find them.

Anyway, I don’t see why I’m out here trying to prove 24 people died while being tortured. I didn’t make the statement. It’s for the person making it to back up and know it’s true before he says it.

Glad we can agree on something.
[/QUOTE]

[Harborwolf]

FinnAgain comes up with a cite…again. From this article.

At least 26 prisoners have died in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2002 in what Army and Navy investigators have concluded or suspect were acts of criminal homicide, according to military officials

Is this cite of sufficient merit, both in source and number?

[Scylla]

@elucidator

Maybe he really doesn’t get it.

One. Is. Too. Many.

Fuck you. I never said one was ok, and fuck you again for suggesting otherwise.

It’s not ok to torture, and it’s not ok to fabricate accusations of torture and state them as fact. To make such accusations without positive knowledge is slanderous irresponsible and slimy.

Let me put this in cynical terms you can grasp. Whenever we abuse a prisoner, we increase the level of enmity. His enmity, his relatives, his friends. Of course, if he is innocent of previous enmity, its a pretty good bet he’s an enemy now. Wouldn’t you?

It’s funny you should say that. I agree 100% percent.

It’s also true that if somebody just makes up a story and says US forces torture dozens to death without knowing it to be true, it also makes enemies for us when other people here and beleive it.

That’s why it’s important that some asshole doesn’t just make it up.

If the object of war is to reduce the number of your enemies, isn’t a policy that cannot help but increase thier number pretty fucking stupid?

I agree. That’s why I can’t understand why you would defend somebody making up false accusations that damage us and create enemies.

Or, do you want us to have more enemies?
Do you support false and irresponsible accusations of torture, or do you think they should be responsibly verified before they are made?

[Hamlet]

@Scylla

No Hamlet. I’m not willing to overlook these things. Not at all. My point is that you’re saying they happened doesn’t make it so. I am disgusted with irresponsible fabrications of scumbags made for political or rhetorical effect.

Then where is your anger at this administration. Which is more important to you, a message board accusation that may or may not be true, or the detention, and possible torture or murder of human beings. It is simply astounding that you get so offended by a post on a message board that you’re willing to resort to idiotic namecalling rather than raise an eyebrow to the actions of this administration. You don’t find that as being a matter of fucked up priorities?

@Scylla

What I’m not willing to overlook is the fact that a bunch of scumbags are actively making this shit up and pretending it’s true for political or rhetorical effect. I think somebody that makes these statements needs to be held accountable. They have a responsibility to prove they are true before they just make them up or repeat them.

Why won’t you hold this adminstration to the same standard as the posters on this board? Again… fucked up priorities.

@Scylla

I haven’t said shit about Abu Grahib. It’s a substantiated responsible story, and I have no issue with it.

Where’s your outrage? Where’s your concern about how this administration allowed it to happen. Where’s your calling for more public disclosure? Where’s the healthy skepticism of what the Bush administration says about other events. Where’s the concern over Gitmo?

Fucked up priorities.

[Scylla]

@Harborwolf

FinnAgain comes up with a cite…again. From this article.
Is this cite of sufficient merit, both in source and number?

Where does it say these people were tortured to death, or died during interrogation?

[FinnAgain]

Well, since you brought it up Hamelt.

@Hamlet

Where’s your outrage?

@Scylla

@FinnAgain

Honestly, do you believe this?
What, Abu Graib is a summer camp and it’s just those Damn Libruls who’re making a big stink about it?

Yes.

@Scylla

I haven’t said shit about Abu Grahib. It’s a substantiated responsible story, and I have no issue with it.

But what do I know, being such a liar and all.

[crowmanyclouds]

@Scylla

Where does it say these people were tortured to death, or died during interrogation?

If they died after they were tortured or interrogated it doesn’t count?

[Scylla]

@Hamlet

Then where is your anger at this administration. Which is more important to you, a message board accusation that may or may not be true, or the detention, and possible torture or murder of human beings.
It is simply astounding that you get so offended by a post on a message board that you’re willing to resort to idiotic namecalling rather than raise an eyebrow to the actions of this administration. You don’t find that as being a matter of fucked up priorities?

Why won’t you hold this adminstration to the same standard as the posters on this board? Again… fucked up priorities.

Where’s your outrage? Where’s your concern about how this administration allowed it to happen. Where’s your calling for more public disclosure? Where’s the healthy skepticism of what the Bush administration says about other events. Where’s the concern over Gitmo?

Fucked up priorities.

Bullshit. For your information I went off on the administration on page 1 and there failings do not excuse the falsification of extreme accusations by others, nor does it invalidate such slander from being a viable and vital topic particularly when it’s becoming increasingly ubiquitous.

In fact, some of you would probably say that the dangers of doing that are a lesson we learned from the administration, which makes it doubly inexcusable.

[FinnAgain]

Sorry, I should’ve just let that slide.

I need to get away from this thread before I say something that I’d really regret. I don’t think I should post to this thread anymore, actually.

[Scylla]

Finn:

What post # is that from?

[Scylla]

@crowmanyclouds

If they died after they were tortured or interrogated it doesn’t count?

How many of them were tortured?

[Harborwolf]

@Scylla

Where does it say these people were tortured to death, or died during interrogation?

I’m guessing that you don’t think that this backs up Finns earlier cite. That or you are having difficulty connecting two dots.

Count me in as another doper that is beginning to lose respect for you. This sort of denial is bewildering.

I’ll discuss this with any other doper willing to step in, but I won’t discuss this with you Scylla.

[Scylla]

Finn:

Ahh, post 82.

Yes you got me. My mistake. I read “Abu Grahib” as “Gitmo” and responded hastily. Abu Grahib is substantiated and the abuses there are both serious real.

[Scylla]

@Harborwolf

I’m guessing that you don’t think that this backs up Finns earlier cite. That or you are having difficulty connecting two dots.

Count me in as another doper that is beginning to lose respect for you. This sort of denial is bewildering.

I’ll discuss this with any other doper willing to step in, but I won’t discuss this with you Scylla.

It’s kind of funny that it when it starts to become clear that you don’t actually have anything to substantiate your claim… I become the bad guy.

Convenient rationalization, that.