All I’ve said is that Finn’s post was supported by the findings of the ACLU after reviewing documents. I think you’ve dismissed it out of hand without any evidence, but hey, that’s your perogative.
Well, if the authority referred to has had the opportunity to review the evidence available at this point (and are apparently suing for the release of more information), then it’s not really a fallacy.
Shouldn’t you have added a nice ominous “Duh duh… Duuuuummmmm” before that?
Good enough. If that is the extent of your argument and you’re happy with that, bully for you.
Then I’m sorry I wasted your time, pointing out something that is glaringly obvious to me, to you, and to most of the other posters.
I haven’t done the research, so I can’t say for sure. But someone has, and dismissing their findings out of hand, to me, isn’t intellectually honest. I don’t know enough to say for a fact that our soldiers have tortured dozens to death, but I’m confident enough in my limited research to say they have tortured prisoners. And playing the new Republican game of “You’re exagerrating so your a traitorous scum” to avoid having to deal with Abu Ghraib and Gitmo shows just how desperate your side has become.
If I didn’t have to explain my position to you 10 times in a row before you got it through your dense skull, we could’ve saved all this time and aggravation. But I’m glad that, in the end, we can agree you’re an asshole.
Think of it as spreading the word. Maybe you could get Lynn to change your Charter Member to Asshole, so I could avoid having to point it out everytime you go on one of your tirades.
If the powers-that-be ever go with custom titles, I think there would be good money to be made in charging members for the right to choose someone else’s custom title. I may have mentioned this in a couple of threads where the particular poster (no longer with us) that I have in mind was participating.
And before anybody goes batshit on me, this post is made in my capacity as just another poster on the SDMB, is not an official moderator post, should not be taken internally, yadda, yadda, yadda.
I most certainly did not dismiss it out of hand. In fact, I think it’s fair to say that I looked harder at it than either you or Finn did. I actually looked to see if the reports contained what they said they contained.
They strongly imply that the reports are there, released under the FOIA. Yet, if you actually go to the trouble to look them up, they are not there.
I find it to be disturbing.
I don’t see how I, or anybody rational can not find this disturbing. They make a big deal about how they attain these documents. They put an abstract of their findings up on a website in an article. They invite you to look at the documents. Yet, when you do so, the ones that they claim show the evidence are not there.
This is a serious problem. So far, nobody has addressed it.
I don’t see how you can accept their findings when they make a big deal about offering the raw data, except for the part that supports their conclusion.
Do you really beleive that this is Dismissing them out of hand with no evidence? I may be an asshole, but better that than just plain stupid.
No. It’s still a fallacy. The fallacy is simply depending on the word of an athority. Since the ACLU is not actually showing the documents, you have to accept their word.
No problem.
No. It would not be. Fortunately, I didn’t do that. I looked at their conclusion, and then I did what they invited me to do… look at the documents from which they drew their conclusions. Oddly enough, those particular documents were withheld (or else I simply couldn’t find them) I don’t see how I can decide whether their conclusions make sense if they do not let me see the data from which they draw those conclusions.
If I tell you that I have proof that Aliens are invading the earth, and I invite you to look at the evidence, and then I don’t show it to you, do you accept my conclusion that aliens are invading the earth?
Let’s be clear. I am not dismissing anything. Go find the autopsy report that says what they say it says. I linked to the index page for you. It’s not there.
I’m not. It’s a serious accusation. It needs to be proven before it’s made.
I’m not Republican. I’m not playing a game. When Finn says our soldiers are torturing dozens to death he is making an implication that characterizes our armed forces in general.
Our soldiers do not deserve to be so characterized unless it can positively be demonstrated to the highest standard that it is true.
That has not been done.
It’s treason. You’re a scumbag if you do it. To do such a thing is to betray your country. You’re not supporting our soldiers if you do it, you’re indicting them. A person that does so does not deserve the freedoms they’ve betrayed.
I can’t put it in stronger terms.
I’m ok with that if she’s willing. Do you think the name you call me, matters?
I really don’t care about being considered an asshole. If defending our soldiers from lying slanderous scum makes me an asshole, than I’m proud of it.
Why are you hijacking this thread (twice) to refer to another Pit thread? You already have your thread about me, why bring it into this one?
IOW, if you have something to say about my posts in this thread, post it. If you don’t, then don’t. But attempting to conflate the two threads is bad form, IMHO.
I’m not hijacking it you moron, that’s why I linked to the other thread. [del]Are you really this stupid?[/del]
Never mind.
And being a cowardly intellectually dishonest moron is bad form. And that’s a fact, not just my opinion. I discussed your post in your Pit thread, as it is just another example of what a fucking waste of carbon you are. You may want to tell me what I can or cannot do with the Pit thread which I started, but you’ll have very little ground to stand on. So, either address the things in the Pit thread, or simply be a coward. Your choice. But I can already guess which you’ll pick.
I do not want to tell you what you can or cannot do in your Pit thread, and I never said I did. I’m just wondering why you feel the need to drag “your” Pit thread into this one? Are you getting confused, perhaps about which thread you are posting in, or are you stupid? Why can’t you address my post in this thread? Are you a coward?
Who would’ve thunk it? You are that stupid. I am shocked, shocked!
I linked to the Pit thread in order to take the discussion there. I’m not dragging that thread into this one, I’m dragging your dumbass braindead mental waste into the thread in which I Pitted you.
~snerk~
Hah. I pointed out that your mental flatulance was characteristic of your standard level of stupidity and intellectual dishonesty. Rather than address my points in either thread, you’ve avoided them. I think folks can figure out who is a coward and who isn’t.
But we can drop this now. You are clearly one of the stupidest people to post on this message board. You add nothing, ever. You are simply a waste of space. I don’t really need to point that out anymore. But it is awfully cute that you have a habit of turning someone’s accusations against them as some sort of sick reflexive habit. “I know I refuse to answer your claims, and that makes you a coward!” “I know I’m intellectually dishonest and won’t answer your questions, that makes you intellectually dishonest!”
Are you lying, or stupid?
I’ve provided, what, a dozen cites, including claims from our own military that there have been a confirmed total of 18 criminal homicides and they’re investigating 8 more?
I’ve also never claimed that those who disagree with me are stupid or assholes, you’re making that up out of whole cloth.
And I can’t believe you’re really that stupid, as I clearly stated what my position was. But maybe you aren’t really that stupid, and you just lack all honor or intellectual honesty? In the post I linked to in your party thread I stated clearly that:
" It is perfectly acceptable for people to have differing standards of proof. It is perfectly acceptable to interpret the data differently."
"One might, of course, also draw different conclusions. "
But it doesn’t surprise me that you’re a cowardly shit who won’t discuss facts. At the start of the Pit thread you claimed we were all after you because you were a Christian and a Republican, etc… even though nothing we said had anything to do with that. We now see the same exactly behavior here.
Are you lying, stupid, or baiting me? Or perhaps a combination of the three?
Hey, moron?
Why don’t you read all them thar cites I’ve provided, both here and where you were Pitted.
Tell ya what, why don’t you feel free to respond to them in either thread, instead of pretending that they don’t exist.
Or, why don’t you have some intellectual honesty and if you’re honestly concerned about hijacking this thread, address the points I raised in the other thread.
You’re right FinnAgain. This last really brought it home to me: Uppy is Profoundly, Cataclysmically Stupid.
Uppy, do you think that you’ll deflect the abuse that you’re receiving in the other thread by riding on the coattails of another poster criticizing FinnAgain in this thread?
“Me too! Me too!..um, where is your evidence that dozens of people have been tortured to death by U.S. troops?”
Christ, you’re a dolt.
Such a concept: the Cataclysmically Stupid teamed up with the Monumentally Thickheaded. No wonder Bush was elected a second time.
Bush said it
I believe it
That Settles It
Scylla, is this how you are reasoning?
You seem to place a lot of stock on what is and isn’t available via the Freedom of Information Act. Are you under the impression that our government is anxious to release information that’s inflammatory…even explosive? Do you think they would fall all over themselves to give the American Public proof that they are involved in torture?
Don’t you think that the Bush administration would be falling all over themselves to provide proof that torture didn’t occur, if they had such proof?
There’s a shitload of smoke in the media regarding the question of torture. Maybe there’s no government-provided proof that torture did occur, but there’s a fire there.
A slow pan across a beautiful mountaintop, with amber waves of grain swaying in the wind in the background. As the Lee Greenwood “I’m proud to be an American” music begins to swell, we pan to Scylla standing forcefully atop the mountain, his chiseled jaw jutting into the soft wind that blows softly through his hair. Scylla is dressed in rugged, outdoor wear, but draped around his robust shoulders is an American flag. As Scylla looks out over America, a majestic bald eagle swoops down and lands on his shoulder.
“Yes, friend” Scylla says “I’ll be an asshole. An asshole for truth, justice and the American way!!!”
You don’t believe, with everything thats been reported, that U.S. forces have engaged in torture and mistreatment of prisoners? Here is just one small example.
I won’t speak for Finn.
I agree that painting all our soldiers as torturers and killers is unforgivable. Kinda like painting everyone who disagrees with you as lying scum is unforgivable. It is only a small fraction of soldiers who have committed atrocities, and a serious problem with the oversight of our military that have led us to this horrible place.
Horseshit. Pointing out the problems, if there is a factual basis for doing so, is not an indictment of the entire military or an invitation to our enemies to attack more. I hate the fact that you, and this administration, create the impression that anyone who has the audicity to question our involvment in Iraq are somehow treasonous, lying scum. I agree with you, if they’re lying about the allegations, they’re worthy of blame. But pretending that everyone who shows concern about the way our prisoners are being treated in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Guantanemo is somehow anti-American is complete and utter bullshit. And you’re willingness to attack the left with such hatred and vindictiveness is pathetic.
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
What name would I have to call you to get you to stop with the idiotic name-calling, the disparagement of anyone who dares speak against you or the war, and the generalizations about your opposition? Whatever that name is, you’re it.
I have some simple questions. IF there has never ever been any abuse or torture, then why were a couple of soldiers (and I use that term loosely) convicted of it (Private England and others). Why would a Captain Fishabck destroy his own career to file complaints? Why would the Inspectore Genral office have a report (which verifies Fishback’s charges)? Why would there be so many easily available phots of the victims? Burns, bruises, all over the victims. The “president” of Iraq fiercely defended the “no torture” argument by claiming that at least nobyd has been beheaded. Hmmmmm. Bush said it
I believe it
That Settles It
Fuck Bush.
I have some simple questions. IF there has never ever been any abuse or torture, then why were a couple of soldiers (and I use that term loosely) convicted of it (Private England and others). Why would a Captain Fishabck destroy his own career to file complaints? Why would the Inspectore Genral office have a report (which verifies Fishback’s charges)? Why would there be so many easily available phots of the victims? Burns, bruises, all over the victims. The “president” of Iraq fiercely defended the “no torture” argument by claiming that at least nobody has been beheaded. Hmmmmm. Bush said it
I believe it
That Settles It
Fuck Bush.