Actually, I think Scylla was focusing on the phrase “tortured to death” vs., say simply murdered/killed while in custody. Not where I’d like to hang my proverbial ass, but there it is.
Torture is reprehensible. We (via our military) have done it, Bush declaimers notwithstanding (we’ve actually tried and convicted some soldiers of abuse, and remembering that those were referred to as “the tip of the iceberg” and how badly the administration has worked to keep the other pics and videos from public domain).
I also don’t understand the stance that finds it treasonous to report on, comment on, admit various horrible stuff happened, and sees it as worse than the horrible stuff happening.
So, in short, while we have proof that “Dozens” of homicides occured, and that “reprehensible acts” were committed, it may indeed fall short of proving that “dozens” were “tortured to death” (vs. simply murdered by say, choking in the traditional sense, hanging, bullets, beatings etc). Is it any less reprehensible that “dozens of homicides” occured? not in my book. Is it treasonous? hell no, it is the truth.
Not good enough, wring. Unless Finn can provide Scylla an affidavit from God Almighty, notorized by Gabriel, testifying that dozens of Iraqi detainees were tortured to death by uniformed American service personnel, then he has not proved it to be so. Therefore, he, myself, John Kerry and a cast of thousands are all traitors.
Its all quite simple when you understand how he thinks. As it were.
Perhaps I should’ve clarified by saying “died under the effects of torture either immediately or later succumbing to injuries.” But then again, I doubt it would’ve mattered much, America hating traitor that I am.
I do think it would’ve helped for all of us to define our terms, but as I believe this exchange shows, we’re still talking about the same essential acts: physical violence which culminates in death either right away or over a span of time.
Agreed without reservation, I just wanted to clarify my position.
Isn’t it nice to be able to define our terms and discuss them rather than answering to charges that we’re giving aid and comfort to our enemies? It’s like, I went to a Pit thread… and a rational discussion broke out!
Compare to the first “gem” of wisdom uttered by our very own Captain America:
Someone who is willing to give away whatever freedoms we have, lecturing US about deserving to lose our freedoms. It’s a wonder I let this pass before.
So, in short, it’s OK to lose freedoms because we are at “war” (or someone is paranoid?). But if you dare question Der Leader, you deserve to lose all the freedoms that are so valiantly protected by the war, Field Marshall Bush, and the Patriot Act?
Oh well. Kerry, Murtha, McCain, the Army IG Office, Cpt Fishback, Lt Col Kwiatkowski, the ACLU, Special WhateverHisTitleIs Fitzgerald, Maj. Wayne Marotto, Col Wilkerson, the CIA, the FBI, George Tenet, the entire Dem party, and moderate Republicans etc are all traitors. COOL!!!
I spent a lot of time looking for that. Glad that you found it. That’s one of the two I couldn’t find.
Ok, reading it, it appears that he was severely injured while being captured. The autopsy report says his wounds were consistent with that.
They put a hood on him overnight, and the combination of that and his busted ribs caused him to expire.
Homicide.
Clearly, he should have had medical treatment. Considering the fact that he was hooded while wounded and didn’t get medical treatment, it’s pretty clear he was abused.
It does not however appear that he was tortured, does it?
Very good catch KD. Thank you again for finding this.
I see. So if the soldier in question inflicted “abuse” to the point of death, but had no particular motive in mind beyond aimless sadism, then this does not qualify as “torture”? And if we provide irrefutable proof of such…unfortunate breakdowns of discipline…in the dozens, nonetheless the perpetrators are slandered by disloyal traitors if they call this “torture”?
Were people on the death marches in the Phillipines near the end of WWII being interrogated? Is it torture to be fed nothing and worked to death if you are not being interrogated? When the insurgents behead someone, is it only tortuous if the victim was being interrogated? If you are being drawn and quartered, it hurts just as much without questioning as it does with. And that is the issue – not some technical definition designed to justify inhumane treatment of the other side.
(Sweet Jesus, we are becoming just like the monsters at POW camps that I heard about after WWII when I was a child.)
Scylla, your comments are some of the most chilling that I have read on the Dope. You have been personally kind to me in the time that we have known each other. I refuse to believe that you are so cold of heart as to be technical about suffering. I think maybe you got yourself backed into a corner with your own anger. The source of the insults is either something of that nature or you must label me a traitor to my country too.
Zoe, that was a very good post, and much calmer than I could’ve managed.
Oh, no, but you see people were just murdered, so if you say they were tortued instead of murdered you’re a lying America-hating traitor. After all, if you say that a murderer was guilty of a lesser crime you’ve slandered him. He deserves his due!
And, those who we’ve killed? They were just ‘abused’ to death. So if you say that they were tortured instead of ‘abused’, you’re a lying America-hating traitor because as we all know, as long as they’re not asking questions while they’re murdering you, it’s not as bad.
“The Left” should all be ashamed of themselves for not learning Newspeak so that the ‘abuse’ leading to the ‘expiration’ of our ‘detainees’ isn’t viewed as torture.
If you look at the Title of Record, 3260 is a preliminary autopsy result. In the Description of Record it says “Final autopsy report of this individual with more details is at DOD 013279. DOD 003323 lists an autopsy of the same date with the notation “Q[uestioned] by NSWT [Navy Seals], struggled/interrogated/died sleeping.”” DOD 13279 is this document which is the full autopsy report, and 3323 is here. Of course you have to scroll down to the exact page.
To be honest, I gave you too much credit. When you said that you couldn’t find documents I thought those documents weren’t there, for whatever reason. I put my faith in your abilities to find them. My bad.
A quick look at the page I (and you) linked to indicates it’s most likely the one that says: "Examination of the neck structures revealed hemorrhage into the strap muscles and fractures of the thyroid cartilage and hyoid bone. History of asphyxia, secondary to occlusion of the oral airway. Pleural and pulmonary adhesions. Hypertensive cardiovascular disease. According to report provided by the US army CID, the detainee was shackled to the top of a doorframe with a gag in his mouth at the time he lost consciousness and became pulseless. The severe blunt force injuries, the hanging position, and the obstruction of the oral cavity with a gag contributed to this individual’s death. DOD 00329 refers to this case as “gagged in standing restraint” DOD 003329 refers to this case as “1 blunt force trama and choking; gagged in standing restraint.” DOD 003324 refers to this case with a note indicating “Q[uestioned] by OGA [Other Governmental Agency - non-military, often refers to CIA], gagged in standing restraint.” , which is listed as DOD documents 003235 - DOD 3241; DOD003307. Now clicking on the DOD 3235 link gives us the autopsy report here. And DOD 3307 can be found here, and scrolling down.
Now that it is the weekend, I’ll have some more time to help if you need more help finding documents.
