Well, given the fact that the ad was produced by the United Church of Christ, apparently a Christian denomination, and I didn’t state that the UCC is not a Christian church, how do you get the idea that I’m contending that gays can’t be Christian? I never said that, never would. Personally, I think that the hardcore Fund’ists who teach that everyone who doesn’t follow their particular brand of Christianity are probably in a lot more danger of not being allowed into heaven than gays. What I said, in effect was that if you aren’t willing/able to abide by the moral teachings of your religion, you should join a different religion. Maybe I should expand that to say if you’re a Christian who can’t abide by the teachings of your church or denomination, you should join another church/denomination.
If by “gay” you mean having a homosexual orientation, then that’s not a sin. It’s something a person has to struggle with, and if you have that orientation, then the Catholic Church teaches that you are called to a life of celibacy. If, in your struggle, you give into the temptation to gay sex, then you have recourse to the confessional, absolution, repentance and returning to the Grace of God the same way someone who committed adultry or fornication would. It’s not the biological urge that’s a sin, it’s the actual act. If someone were living in open adultry or fornication, and unwilling to change their ways, they would be just as unwelcome to receive communion as someone who was openly living a homosexual lifestyle.
Even so, you’re still perfectly welcome to come in, occupy the pew, pray with us. You just shouldn’t take communion, out of respect for the teachings of the Church, if you don’t believe you’re endangering your immortal soul by practicing a lifestyle it teaches is sinful and taking communion without confessing and repenting of it.
Nope! That’s Mormon, and it better be Lime Jello. I think Lutheran is potato salad.
Tinkertoy
who has eated more lime jello than the entire population of California.
I dunno about the rest of you but I grew up in one of the most white churches in the Catholic fold. There wasn’t any written rule per se that ethnic minorities couldn’t attend but I don’t recall ever seeing any. A lot of exclusion goes on between the lines of doctrine and attitudes. If a black person had attended service, he or she would have found very little support and fellowship even though everyone there would’ve denied having a racist bone in their bodies. Too often in churches there is dissonance between what is said and what is done.
RE: homosexuality and the churches.
Well this is probably the most obvious sticking point between the UCC and most mainline denominations and most likely the point where the commercial has the most validity. Yes you can be gay and attend other churches, but only as a half-life. Technically a celibate gay man could attend and speak his truth at any church throughout the world… but reality is very different. In reality he’d find a lot of discomfort and possibly even outright hostility directed his way by other congregants as well as many priests. This is not invalid fear but simple truth as I have observed it.
Further, the ad speaks towards gay and lesbian couples… who are most definately not welcome as full members in quite a lot of churches. The UCC holds the position that sexual orientation, and love expressed between two people of the same sex, holds equal worth with love towards the opposite sex. Thus they are simply advertising at least one truth: gay couples are very welcome to be fully participative in the body of the Church of Christ without repentance or fear.
I will not debate the doctrine behind this stance because I’ve been over it 500 times with all sorts of people and I’m tired of it. Suffice to say, the UCC feels (as I do) that there is plenty of room in Biblical interpretation to allow for gay people and same-sex romantic love.
I gotta wonder, then, what is the POINT of communion then? Is the problem that the church doesn’t want dirty unrepentant sinners touching Jesus’ body? Jesus didn’t seem to have much problem with that in the Bible (in fact, the running theme seemed to be that he, despite being exposed to all sorts of supposedly unclean and unholy things, could not be defiled) so why does his church act like he can be thusly defiled? What’s the big deal? Communion under this rationale just sounds way too much like a way for peopel to pat themselves on the back for not being like THOSE other sinners.
In fact, the whole problem of exclusionary church communities looks sort of like that: are they there to preach to the already converted, or to the unrepentant sinners? Without spending their time really trying to reach the latter, church seems a lot more like a nice domestic rest home for the self-content than a vital mission trying to change the world.
It’s just a coincidence that these churches and the one you are mentioning are both UCC… The churches with the ad are the United Church of Christ, and the churches in Canada are the United Church of Canada.
But the United Church in Canada is very welcoming of Gays and Lesbians… My husband and I were married at Metropolitan United earlier this year in Toronto… (The same church that Queer As Folk films in…)
Keep in mind that the bouncer is merely a metaphor. No church seriously has someone standing there saying, “Okay, you can come in-no, you can’t!”
And what does it matter why these people were turned away? The UCC’s point is that Jesus never turned away ANYONE, for ANY reason.
As far as Communion goes in the Catholic church, it’s considered a very important and sacred rite, and children spend almost two years preparing for their own First Holy Communions. It has nothing to do with not being the “right” kind of Christian.
Betcha were at a Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod congregation, weren’t you? I grew up in that church, and communion isn’t the only thing that’s closed! Women aren’t even voting members of the congregation, and they sure as heck can’t be ordained.
I’m Episcopalian now. In a “Welcome” book in all the pews, on the first page, there’s this statement.
"But there’s one thing we want to get straight right up front. If you are wondering ‘Can I take communion here?’ the answer is not Yes! but WE HOPE YOU WILL!’ And the dean, before communion starts says either “All who love God are welcome at his table” or “This is not the Episcopalians table, but the Lord’s.”
I was thinking about that too. People get upset because, “churches don’t have bouncers!” yet they believe in a book where this Noah guy gathers up every animal species on earth and sails 'em around for awhile. Somehow they don’t get the “metaphor” part?
I saw the commercial on TV a while ago. I’m not religious but I thought it was well done and the only message I got out of it was “Everyone is welcome at our church”.
We’re all aware that there are large numbers of folks who object to homosexuality on religious grounds, and especially over the last few months that debate has been front & center here in the US. The stuff that I’ve seen going on has made me wonder if my gay friends would feel welcome at a church, so this was a nice commercial to see. I didn’t find it shocking, controversial or judgemental.
Those ads move me deeply. I’ve never been turned away by a bouncer, but I’ve been forced out of churches before because of who I am, and it feels pretty much the same. These spots are spot on, and if I didn’t already have a church I loved I would check out the UCC immediately.
Those who don’t understand and condemn the ads have no idea how blessed they are to have actually been accepted by bigoted, hateful assortment of people that generally call themselves Christian in America.
In that case, why not an ad with a UCC church with a sign out front “Everybody welcome. Come in, kneel down and pray.” [Any Five Man Electrical Band fans around?]; showing a gay couple, and people of all races being openly let in, rather than show other Christian churches with bouncers? This ad does badmouth other Christian churches.
Well, two reasons, I think. One is that the ad you pitch is boring, and certainly wouldn’t have people discussing it or mentioning the church’s name on the nightly news and in message boards around the world. Face it, advertising is about getting your product mentioned and remembered - and in this case, the product is the church.
Secondly, I think it’s because the UCC’s point wasn’t merely that they take all comers, but they they sincerely and truly take all comers as they are right now, not (as illustrated by Mango) like churches who *say *they welcome all, but *mean *they welcome some, or most, conditionally, with the caveat that they fundamentally change how they act.
That is, the point of the UCC ad isn’t that they welcome everybody. The point is that they welcome everybody, even those made to feel unwelcome at other churches. Whether or not this is a good idea, or consistent with scripture is an entirely different debate. It doesn’t matter whether or not we agree with their position (though I do), it is the position that they and their congregants have chosen to take.
If your church wouldn’t turn away an openly sexual gay couple, then they’re not the church the UCC was contrasting itself with. It’s the churches that turn people away that they’re talking about, and there certainly are many of those churches in existence. IMHO, they are the ones that should be ashamed. If your church is one of the good Christian churches, then what is there to be offended by? Certainly no one is willing to say that no Christian church anywhere has ever turned away a potential congregant they didn’t approve of, are you? Are you?
Well, I say “YEEEEEEE-haw! Damn right! Go, Jesus!” and so on and so forth. I haven’t seen the inside of a church where someone wasn’t dead or getting married for so long, I can’t remember, but Jesus is just all right with me. According to what I read from such rumormongers as Mark, Matthew, and the rest of the Highly Unusual Suspects, The Boss made a point of hanging out with whores, tax collectors, centurions and Pharisees (which is Aramaic for “Republican”). Any church that claims to operate on his behalf can do nothing less, or advertise itself as Christian Lite.
Bite on that, Mr. Falwell! (I’d a said “Reverend Falwell”, but my taste for post-modernist irony is a bit low this morning…)
The UCofC must be having a cash flow problem. Basically, all their ad says is that they don’t care who they can con, just come on in so we can get money from you.
