Wow yeah. Cuz that whole “love one another” bit? That was just one big pyramid scheme.
Were this the pit I’d have a few other choice things to say to you.
Given your location, I think you’re talking about a different . United Church
United Church of Christ originated in a 1950s merger of the Congregational Churches and the Evangelical and Reformed Church, about the latter of which I know little. They’ve traditionally been among the most “liberal” of Christian denominations, though individual local churches span the gamut from highly conservative to strongly liberal.
Exactly.
Day before yesterday, I attended church with my in-laws, who are Southern Baptist. The pastor included in his sermon some of the usual caricatures of gays, liberals, and others outside the evangelical tribe. It wasn’t a bouncer at the door, but I’m sure plenty of people would have read his words as a message of unwelcome based not on religious belief, but on cultural or political differences, let alone differences involving sexual orientation.
And ain’t that convenient as members of those same denominations can’t run to the polls fast enough to vote to ensure that gays can never be married and thereby make their relationships “legitimate” in the eyes of the same judgmental souls.
There’s a big difference between allowing and welcoming. There have been many instances when I have visited churches for special events or while travelling and the parishoners made it very clear that they weren’t at all comfortable with my presence in their pews. I have had other “Christians” choose not to greet me or show me to a seat even when they were the official greeters and ushers, I’ve found myself pointedly ignored during the greeting of peace, watched people contort themselves to pass communion elements around me (in churches which do not have closed communion) and neglect to give me programs, palms on Palm Sunday and candles at candlelight services until I went to someone and explicitly asked. It’s not hard to say that these were not so subtle messages that I may be allowed to be in their church but I would be much better off going elsewhere.
Let’s talk about this – a UCC church near me makes a big to-do on their website about the recent dedication of their new handicapped entrance and elevator. They went to great lengths, including a dedicated handicapped assistance ministry that was in place to help people before the accessibility measures were put into place, and a fundraising effort over the course of several years, to make sure that those who can’t climb stairs and those in wheelchairs can not only come to services in their sanctuary but participate in other church activities in other parts of the building. How many churches, built before the ADA, are unwelcoming to the disabled thanks to antiquated buildings, and have no inclination to fix the problem?
How many denominations in your town have even one church where services are routinely interpreted for the deaf?
How many churches have some provisions for parents of infants so that they can still hear the service (if not see it) while attending to their children somewhere other than the sanctuary so that other churchgoers aren’t disturbed by the childrens’ crying, etc?
On the flip side, how many churches in your area have geared so much of their focus and programming toward families of the mother-father-children variety that the unmarried, the widowed and single parents are excluded by design?
There is a lot that Christians have been doing that put up barriers that keep people away from the church and the gospel, and in such sub rosa, insidious ways that everyone would be better served if they did have bouncers at the door, so that people would at least know what they’re dealing with the moment they approach the door.
Because our religion teaches that sexual relations between members of the same sex is a sin, and that marriage should be reserved for members of the opposite sex. Sometimes people have a tendency to want to force their own moral beliefs on others, even if it has no impact on their own lives. It’s called being human, and non-religious types are guilty of it too.
I’ve never seen this. Here in Vegas, many Catholic parishes have a substantial portion of African American members, and there is a lot of cross-visitation that goes on between parishes because. Nearly all parishes are quite ethnically diverse, and I’ve never seen anyone try to avoid exchanging the sign of peace with anyone else, regardless of skin color. Also, in what churches are the communion elements passed around the congregation? Even in LDS churches, the elders carry it around in little trays, it isn’t just passed from hand to hand all willy-nilly.
Well, St. Joan of Arc was built in the 1920’s, and when they put in their wheelchair ramp, they didn’t feel the need to put out an “oh, aren’t we wonderful, we’re handicapped-accessible” campaign. The disabled folks managed to find it anyway, being as how it’s right in front of the door and all.
There you’ve got me, although I imagine if the issue were brought up to the pastor, he would probably be trying to hustle volunteers if the church couldn’t afford to pay for it (there are a lot of poor congregations in town.)
You mean there are churches that don’t have these facilities???
Hmm. I’m single, and I usually show up stag at most church functions, and I don’t feel “designed” out of the activities. What kind of churches are you attending? Most of the ones I’ve seen either just have all-inclusive pot luck dinners, etc., or also have programs and events for singles as well as married with children-type folks.
You may be right there. Of course, I probably wouldn’t feel comfortable in a church that excluded people on the basis of ethnicity or other non-behavioral factors anyway, so I wouldn’t want to be there either. If I saw bouncers at the door, I’d probably just head off down the street to a Catholic church.
Except in here in the US we have that whole Establishment Clause, where upon religious beliefs are NOT the basis of civil law. The Catholic church also teaches that divorce and remarriage is a sin. Yet divorce is still legal and the church isn’t forced to marry divorcees. Imagine that!
Most of the ones I’ve been a “regular attender” of. Having the deaconate/elders pass communion down the rows (much like the offering plate) is very common for some Protestant churches. are there enough qualifiers in that sentence?
I think you’re taking this ad way too literally. “False portrayal”? It’s called a metaphor. Check out your Bible, there’re plenty of good examples of them in there.
Which is exactly the point of this commercial. If you’re gay, and you don’t think there’s anything sinful about that, but you’re also a Christian… well, your church-going options are pretty limited. UCC is presenting themselves as an option to those gay couples who want to be part of a worshipful community, without the rather onerous requirement of spending their entire lives alone and unloved.
Most major denominations also work to ensure that gays can never, ever have sex within marriage, even in a wholly secular sense, so this argument is a bit of a non-starter. The religious opposition to homosexuality has no relation to the morality of pre-maritial sex. That’s a red herring to divert attention from the naked, baseless bigotry of their stance against homosexuality.
Again, you’re being too literal. I read the rejection of the black couple not as an accusation of racism against other mainstream churches, but rather as an acknowledgement of the inescapable similarities between homophobia and race-based bigotry. The treatment of homosexuals by most mainstream Christian churches today is morally identical to the treatment of blacks by many mainstream Christian churches fifty years ago. A church that is not welcoming of gay couples is every bit as bigotted as a church that is not welcoming of black parishoners.
Not sure if this is relevant, but in the church I attend (Methodist in the UK), it is sometimes done that way; in fact there’s a fair bit of variety;
-For ‘special’ services, such as at easter, the congregation might be invited to come forward and receive communion at the table
-For ‘regular’ services, the stewards carry around little trays and serve most people, but if they can’t reach anyone (due to the narrow space in between the rows of chairs), the tray will be passed along and the person will be served by someone else sitting near them.
-Every now and again, we all serve each other - the trays are passed along the rows; you serve the bread to the person to whom you are about to give the tray, then when the wine comes around, you serve the person who just gave you the tray (partly because you get to serve and be served by two different people and partly because serving someone their little cup of wine, then passing them the tray leaves them with no hand free to serve the next person)
If you’re physically unable to attend church services, you’re absolved of the responsibility to attend. If you absolutely insist on attending an old historic church without a wheelchair ramp, just show up Sunday morning and I’ll bet you a group of parishioners will quickly form to physically carry you up the steps.
You know your church depends on you as much as you depend on it. If you really want wheelchair ramps, deaf interpreters & sound-proof screaming children booths, how about you cough up some dough to make it happen? At the very least, help organize the fund-raisers.
How many residents of your parish need & want it? I just googled church+deaf+services and got a lot of hits.
I don’t see what the problem is here. If your kid is screaming, it needs you to attend to it. You don’t need to hear the service at that point. You need to attend to your sceaming kid, so take it to the back of the church, or home. Believe me, God heard your kid screaming too and you can be excused from mass that day, I’m pretty sure.
I’ve never seen this. Widows & widowers are always welcome. My mother was a devout, christian single parent and she was never unwelcome. If you’re unmarried, well, assuming your christian and not homosexual, and heck, even if you are homosexual but not “out,” church is a great way to immediately find yourself set up with someone’s son/daughter. Christians love match-making.
Gah! Somebody else mentioned this awhile back. You are completely missing the point.
Why should the gay people in the church family be forced to live a lie? Why must they continue to be gay in secret? (another poster had stated that it was OK for gays to come, as long they weren’t openly gay). Who is any man to deny them the full of Christ’s love?
How unaccepting and un-Christlike is that? I am not gay, but I could never go to a church that didn’t accept gays (our Pastor is UCC–thank goodness!).
As to young singles(childless) in the church–it IS a problem–maybe not in big cities, where there are more of them, but in my lil suburban backwater–we are tearing our hair out to find ways to make young singles comfortable and not feel like 3rd wheels. It is a valid concern.
And the “you can’t take Communion here” stuff–I just shake my head. It has never failed to make me think less of the church that does that(when I’m a guest). Too right it’s the Lord’s table, not XYZ’s…at my church, anyone can take Communion. Somewhere, the “love one another” got lost along the way for too many Christians.
Oops-forgot this bit. As to the “Christians love matchmaking” bit–OK, how about if that nice gay guy dates your son? (assuming your son is gay, of course). A match made in heaven!
Interesting. I happen to live a block away from a Lutheran church. I don’t believe in Jesus, and am a sinner. Perhaps I should try them out. Even the local mosque didn’t question me attending their services. (And I attended with a Muslim who taught me about the customs.) I wonder if they would let me in and pray?
I may be wrong, but I’m pretty sure levdrakon is a nice gay guy.
I mean, I know he’s gay. I’m pretty sure he’s nice. But for all I know, he might be a prick in real life.
Again, you’re being too literal. I read the rejection of the black couple not as an accusation of racism against other mainstream churches, but rather as an acknowledgement of the inescapable similarities between homophobia and race-based bigotry. The treatment of homosexuals by most mainstream Christian churches today is morally identical to the treatment of blacks by many mainstream Christian churches fifty years ago. A church that is not welcoming of gay couples is every bit as bigotted as a church that is not welcoming of black parishoner.
No, there is a difference between skin color and homosexual sex.
The last sentence is a reply to the former by another.
Soo… polygamy is allowed in the US, since the reasons against it in modern times are based almost solely on religious beliefs?
Not a significant one.
Well, having a sister who is blind but also deeply Christian, I can tell you that she had quite a bit of difficulty finding a church that was really welcoming, even in the “pious” Colorado Springs. Yes, I’m sure that if she had asked, people would have given her a guiding-elbow to a pew, and would have talked to her if she started conversation, but when you’re blind how do you do that? She described going to several churches where people just didn’t say anything if they didn’t know you and you were sitting by yourself. Yeah, she could go, and she could hear the pastor or whomever speak, and then she would leave without ever meeting anyone.
In the church she goes to now, the people are just that much more welcoming. She went, people saw that she was alone, and people came up and talked to her. She simply describes it as feeling God in a way that was absent in other churches.
The Asbestos Mango, you can get off the high horse about not accepting unrepentant gay people in your church, unless of course you’re also going to tell all of those sick, disgusting adulterous remarriers to not come back until they’ve divorced their second spouses and gotten back with the first ones.