Outlander on Starz Season 2 Discussion Thread

Cafe Society
41

Response to ivylass’s spoiler:

[spoiler]Fergus happened to be at the brothel visiting with the women while Jamie sorted out a problem, when Randall came on the scene. Instead of choosing a woman, he chooses Fergus. Fergus willingly goes, at the urging of the Madame, who promises to split the profits with him. (Fergus grew up at the brothel, so he was well aware what went on there.) Randall got rough and attempted to brand Fergus with his ring, causing Fergus to cry out. Jamie heard the commotion and stormed in, before the sexual act was consummated. IIRC.

So while Randall is a sadist and pedophile, in addition to be a rapist (of Jamie), technically he’s not a child rapist because he was interrupted before penetration took place. [/spoiler]

42

One could also argue that BJR knew Jamie was there and was trying to provoke him in the most egregious way possible.

43

Faith.

Best episode of the entire show and a candidate for best hour of TV for all 2016.

Wow. Just wow.

44

I’m still in tears for Claire. Poor little Faith.

I laughed at the “payment”. 5 quick thrusts? Ha! Still… I’m still so sad.

45

All those folks who complain that Cait can’t act, and has just the one expression? Yeah, y’all just got Balfe-slapped. Powerful, powerful episode.

I also thought that the King’s “payment” scene was a clever dig at him. Just a two-pump chump.

Fantastic writing, though. Mrs. SMV, who’s read the books three or four times over, said that seeing how beaten and battered and exhausted Claire was, after the still birth and nearly dying, and then being raped by Louis, really hit her more than just reading those scenes did. One profile shot of her, while she was telling Jamie about Faith - well, I don’t know if it was the makeup, or lighting, or cinematography, but she looked so frail and tired and old. Wonderful work.

46

In the books, the King just does a few pro forma pumps so he can say he lay with La Dame Blanche, but he doesn’t want to run the risk of getting her pregnant with a royal bastard, so it really was just a payment for services rendered.

Spoiler for non-book readers: There’s more urgency in getting Jamie out of the Bastile, as he has to go meet the boat that has the hijacked wine being delivered and buy the wine. He would be more convincing than Murtagh as an aristocratic wine merchant, and in the books, there is no roadside mugging…Jamie does pretend smallpox on the boat and the boat pulls in somewhere in Spain (IIRC) so as to avoid confiscation in Le Havre.

Cait was fabulous in this episode, but we have to give props to young Romann Berrux, who plays Fergus. I know the producers and directors (and Tobias) must have been very careful in how and what they shot with Romann, but his heartbreak and shame was wrenching.

Claire thanking and bowing to Magnus when she got home was quite touching, and kudoes to dear Louise, who came to comfort Claire and take the baby away.

I cried three times during this episode. They set the bar higher with each episode and clear it with room to spare every time.

Next week, back in Scotland, with Clive Russell (late as Blackfish from Game of Thrones, so the Tullys are reuiniting) as Lord Lovat.

47

Forgot to mention when Louise shows up at the hospital to comfort Claire, you can see her cradling her pregnant belly. Lovely sympathetic touch.

48

I noticed that, too. Nice bit of acting.

49

Come on. King Louis didn’t rape Claire. She knew full well what it meant to ask for a private conference with him. It was a mutual agreed upon price, and she was presumably free to say at any time, “I don’t accept those terms.” Yes, her husband remained in jail, but he was, in fact, guilty of the crime he was imprisoned for.

However, I agree that she was not free to slap him afterward, for good measure. One does not slap the King.

50

I would agree it wasn’t rape. It was a business transaction. Mother Hildegarde warned her, but she realized it was the price to pay. I did like that little flip of her hair she did after, as if to say, “Yep, that’s over with, let’s get straightened up.”

Quite frankly, if I had to lay with someone to free my husband, I’d be there with bells on. It doesn’t mean anything. She kept her hands at her side and as Claire said, “Thought of England.”

51

That whole episode was really hard to watch. Damn.

Good boy, Bouton. Good boy.

I thought they conveyed the transactional nature of the act very well.

In possibly the only light moment in the entire show, I appreciated the “H. Roosevelt.”

52

Okay, this one wasn’t my favorite. Diana had hinted about a “jump the shark” moment (I think she overstated it or used the phrase wrong) but for me, Claire’s “vision” was quite eye-rolling. They did a good job establishing Lord Lovat as a superstitious bully, but I was with Colum when he said, “God, man, are you that fucking blind?” (That may be paraphrased.) Still, they ended it neatly with Simon showing that he plays both ends against the middle and is not above sacrificing his heir to save his butt. (I did miss the prostatits scene, but oh well.)

Damn, but Fergus has better eyebrows than I do.

We got Jamie talking to his baby niece. Did anyone notice the background music during that scene? It sounded like the piano piece Bear had written for the gravesite visit to Faith. I took it to mean not only was Jamie baring his soul to one who wouldn’t judge him, but he was also missing his daughter.

The confrontation with Laoghaire is not in this book, but I think it does set up what is to come Jenny pushes her brother to marry Laoghaire to give him something to hang onto after he sends Claire back through the stones. I’m glad neither Claire nor Jamie are willing to forgive the little minx, and Nell gave a nice interview where she said that it’s possible Laoghaire is conning herself into believing she’s sorry. Would a truly penitent young girl allow someone a “keek” down her dress?

Next week I think we meet Lord John!!

53

I needed a little bit of calm exposition after last episode. (Last week was rough, between Outlander and GoT. :o)

For some reason I half expected David Bradley to play Lord Lovat. No complaints about Clive Russell, though!

Great scene, and I appreciated that they used real babies.

Yeah, I saw the reasoning behind it. I always thought the Laoghaire storyline was one of the most forced in the books (let’s see, we need a parallel to Frank, a stunning reveal, AND a disagreement strong enough to drive Claire away from Jamie post-reunification, so, voila?) so it doesn’t make anything worse, I suppose.

I’m pretty stoked about this. Maybe I’ll start watching The White Queen as a preview.

54

Agreed that it was ridiculous, but I don’t think it was out of place. Claire had used other people’s superstition to further her interests before - the whole “La Dame Blanche” business with King Louis and the Compte de Saint-Germain - so I saw it as strategy. Colum Mackenzie was not stupid enough to fall for it, but clearly Lovat was.

Diana played true to history with this one; the historical Lovat did in fact send messages of support to both the Hanoverians and the Jacobites, and did stay home while his son Simon took a Fraser regiment to the Jacobite army. (The chiefs of the Frasers of Lovat traditionally had the name Simon, which is why their Gaelic title is mac Shimi, “son of Simon”. I didn’t expect Jamie to refer to Lovat as “MacShimi”, though I would have squeed if he had, but I did wince at Claire calling young Simon “Master Lovat”. “Master of Lovat” was a title, not a name.)

Okay, it wasn’t rape. But my point was that she was battered and exhausted from a childbirth, then was penetrated yet again. Even if her childbirth had been a deliriously happy occasion, she’d have been swollen and sore.

55

From what was hinted in the books, she wouldn’t have been penetrated very far. :stuck_out_tongue:

56

Well, Jamie is a Scotsman, so she’s no doubt stretched out beyond all possible pleasure for any ordinary man.

:smiley:

57

Yeah, not my favorite episode, either. The surprise appearance of Colum and Laighoire, which didn’t appear in the book, is forgivable, I suppose, but still doesn’t adequately explain what will come later.

I think one of the most difficult things for me to suspend my disbelief about (keeping in mind that I’ve already bought into the time travel bit), was Jamie’s mind-blowing connections to very rich and powerful people. I can accept him being Lord of Lallybroch, thanks to the early death of his brother, and that he also happens to be nephew to the MacKenzie.

But, it doesn’t end there. I mean there are Uncles and Aunts and cousins who pop up all over the place, in the most desperate of times! One of the most eye-rolling of these was when his clansman were trying to get him out of prison, where Randall was torturing him to death. They are seemingly out of options because no Scot with an ounce of sense would agree to aide and abet. But lo and behold, one of his mother’s former admirers recognizes a bracelet he’d gifted her decades ago, and agrees to help the cause.

Ooookay.

Then, his Uncle Alex is not just a mere priest, but Abbot of a monastery in France, who can take him in (again) and nurse him back to health after his two near mortal injuries.

Then you have Uncle Jared Fraser, who happens to be a rich wine merchant in France, and is conveniently acquainted with the Young Imposter. Plus, he’s also in a position to introduce Jamie and Claire to the French court. And Mother Hildegarde’s cousin’s dog just happened to be of the same litter as the favorite dog of the King of France’s current lover, and thus she is able to arrange a meeting with the King Himself, to discuss Jamie’s pardon.

And now we find out that his grandsire is none other than Lord Lovat, another powerful man.

It doesn’t end there, but come on. With connections like these, who needs luck?

58

Ah well. The Scots are a clannish bunch and I would imagine not afraid to hit up relatives in times of need.

Although, When they get to America, all they have is Aunt Jocasta

59

I take your point, but his purely clan-related connections are not out of the realm of probability. Neither Ron in the show nor Diana in the books (as far as I recall, which isn’t very far) go into the nature of Jamie’s title to Lallybroch, but he’s clearly a substantial man. Which suggests that he is a tacksman; that is, one who holds his lease directly of the laird. Tacksmen sublet their lands to cottars; thus Jamie talking of his tenants, such as the Macnabbs. Cottars were considered men of the clan, if their laird was also their chief (not always the case). But they weren’t always related to the chief. Tacksmen usually were; they were the “gentlemen of the clan” and officered it when it went to war. And clannishness was important - a clan member’s relationship to his or her chief was as important as his or her relationship to the laird. Jamie has a legal relationship to Lord Lovat as tenant to landlord (unless I’m remembering wrong and he holds Lallybroch of Colum Mackenzie); but he also has an emotional relationship to Lovat as mac Shimi, chief of the highland Frasers. His access is not unlikely just on those grounds.

60

IIRC, Lallybroch was a gift from the Mackenzies to Ellen and Brian, once it became clear that their marriage wasn’t going anywhere (she was heavily pregnant when they popped out of hiding) but it had to go to Ellen’s children upon her death and if they had no children who survived, go back to the Mackenzies. That way Lovat had no claim to it.

Plus, we’re talking about families with many children (Dougal and Colum had two sisters, and Jenny and Ian had six children) so it’s not out of the realm of possibility there would be many cousins running around.