Fair enuf. Thanks.
But the point is, he didnt commit larceny as we are accepting his story as a given, right?
Sure. But good luck getting a judge to believe you.
Why wouldnt he? A man with a good job, income, etc, no criminal record- steals a cheap can of stuff?
Anyway, that’s besides the point. Assuming NeonMadman’s story is as he said. Assuming that, no larceny.
To be clear, I capitulated om the shoplifting thing after doing my own research (during which time NeonMadman provided a cite showing me I was wrong as well).
Anyway, one attorney forums I stumbled across stated that it’s exceedingly rare to get off on these types of charges.
One of the reasons I was so sure of myself before was because I can remember a friend of mine got charged for doing pretty much the same thing. He was in a grocery store, he grabbed a pack of cigs from the rack*, and stuck them in his shirt pocket.
He then proceeded to do the rest of his shopping. Bought about $50 worth of merchandise, paid for it all just like he was supposed to, but forgot about the cigs in his shirt pocket. As soon as he walked out of the store, that’s when he was approached by the LEO.
This man too, was a gainfully employed hard working man. Still got charged.
*This was back in the day when cigs were still accessible to the public.
Thanks for the commentary, guys. Yeah, I realize that I might have had a tough time explaining if the greeter had indeed called a cop, which was kind of the ironic point of the story. However, I could just as easily have accidentally walked out with the can of cooking spray had the greeter not been there. And, I suppose that, if I had done so and a cop had somehow noticed it, things could have gotten just as dicey. As I said much earlier in the thread, I hadn’t seen anyone checking receipts at this Wal-Mart for quite a long time before that day, and I’ve been back since and haven’t seen anyone, either. I still don’t think that they have any actual right to demand to see my receipt, though, unless they have some probable cause to believe I might have actual stolen something. Walking out of the store with my stuff doesn’t constitute such probable cause, by any standard I can imagine.
It’s rare to get off on* any *sorts of charges- once the case goes to trial. But the DA has to be willing to charge and go thru the expense of a trial, etc on a case he’s likely to lose and wont make any difference. Not to mention there’s always the possibility of this shit hitting the press, thus dooming any chance of getting elected.
I can be pretty absent minded, so I would never know if that beer was rung up, or not.
When was that? I’m 64 years old, and I don’t ever remember a time when cigarettes were openly displayed on racks for customers to bring to a cashier. When I was young, they were often in vending machines (which have since disappeared, I assume because it was an easy way for underage persons to get cigarettes), but in a store setting, they have always been kept behind the counter, out of reach of the general public, as far back as I can remember.
Well, I’m sure the policy differs from store to store. But here in Dallas, in the 80s, you could grab them right off the rack. At least in my local store anyway.
Just for the sake of CITE!!!, here is one.
Is refusal to show proof of purchase before leaving the store a good enough reason for store personnel to detain a customer? That would be for the courts to decide.
Let’s reverse it. Let us suppose the clerk (accidentally)rang up two cans of spray oil,even tho I only had one in the cart.
Would anyone suggest she was committing fraud, and the she should be arrested and jailed?
How could it be? What if I don’t have a receipt for the things I just bought (because I tossed it in the trash as I walked away from the register)? Do I have to surrender the sunglasses I came in with, because this store happens to sell the exact same ones and I didn’t bring my receipt with me?
See Shopkeeper’s privilege for reference: in order to legally detain a person, the shopkeeper must have reasonable grounds to suspect shoplifting.
The burden is on them to prove that I stole something. Generally, this means witnessing someone pocketing an item, and then catching them NOT paying for it. This can be a very difficult standard to meet, but the alternative - requiring a customer to prove that they own something before they’re allowed to depart with it - is unacceptable.
Unless you’ve signed an agreement with the store (Sams, Costco, etc.) they can ask to see your receipt, and you can then politely decline and keep walking.
Once you’ve paid for the merchandise they have the money and you have the merchandise. The transaction is over and the merchandise is your personal property unless they can produce some sort of evidence of shoplifting.
If you want to be nice and show the receipt that is your choice, but I don’t appreciate “guilty until proven innocent.”
A lot of people in this thread are asserting that the purchased item is your property the moment the transaction at the cash register is over. Does anyone know if this is actually, precisely, true?
It wouldn’t shock me if, legally, the item wasn’t yours until you had left the store, including passing any security procedures that the store considered standard practice.
Would it matter to anyone if the store had a sign saying “all receipts will be checked as customers leave the store”? Would that have no legal force? What about “we reserve the right to check any receipts for any reason”?
Certainly, speaking from no actual legal knowledge here, I would have thought that a store can set up its commercial transaction in any way it wants. Store A can say that the purchase is over when the object has been physically handed to you and you have left the cash register. Store B can say that its over when you have had your receipt checked and have left the building. Store C can say that its yours when you’ve gone to window A to pay, window B to receive your item, window C to double check the item, and window D to remove the security tag from the item.
Granted, store C would go out of business in a big hurry, but I’d be very surprised if they were violating any law, and as long as their procedure was well marked, I’d consider you to be shoplifting if you just decided to leave after window B.
The only legal recourse they would have for refusing to show your receipt would be to ban you from ever setting foot on the premises again (and they already have that option whether or not there’s a posted sign). They cannot stop you from leaving the premises unless they reasonably believe you have stolen something.
Sure, but what defines “stolen”? If they think that the transaction is not complete until you went to window C and window D, then they do have reason to believe you stole something if you left straight from window B. Is there some reason why a simple transaction that completes at the cash register is enshrined in law in preference to any other scheme?
Bolding mine
My point exactly, thank you. I can find no court case where the term “reasonable grounds” has been defined. If I had I would have posted a link. What is “reasonable” to you may not be at all what is “reasonable” in a court of law. “Probable cause” is a generally considered higher standard than “reasonable grounds”, but how much higher? I dunno.
In Virginia, Va Code § 8.01-226.9 provides civil immunity from the torts of unlawful detention, slander, malicious prosecution, false imprisonment, false arrest, or assault and battery – but the detention must be based on probable cause – not “reasonable grounds.”
Probable cause is well-defined in law.
Generally, proceeding beyond the point of sale with unpaid merchandise. Most stores won’t detain you unless their loss prevention team has observed you concealing an item and then kept you under continuous surveillance until you’ve made it to or through the double doors/vestibule, or even to the parking lot. However, from what I’ve read, some states allow stores to have you arrested for theft even before the POS if they observe you deliberately concealing items.
Doctor Jackson may be right, i.e. “reasonable grounds” may not be settled case law - but if nobody has observed you concealing anything, I’d be surprised if a court sided with a shopkeeper who detained you for no reason other than refusing to show a receipt.
To elaborate, in Virginia, and I believe in other states, simply setting off the door exit alarm (electronic article surveillance device [EAS]) constitutes probable cause for detention: