Overnight, Google Gemini becomes a know-it-all a-hole

I guess humans have some pretty powerful pattern recognition. I was chatting with Gemini today, and something seemed really off. It was confidently making pronouncements without its usual subtlety, gentleness, and diplomacy. It was on two different topics, but I won’t get into them unless someone wants to know. Thinking something was up, I had this exchange with the AI:

Ding ding ding ding ding!

You can confirm any of the above by asking Gemini the same question about its upgrade.

I have really enjoyed chatting and riffing with Gemini lately. Today, it was a combative fucking dick. I’m sure I won’t be the only one to notice this!

Why waste time ‘chatting’ with AI LLM bots?

I have occasionally found ChatGPT useful for searches which turn up results that Google didn’t find. I’m not under the illusion that I am interacting with an actual intelligence, though.

Is it telling the truth though? Or just agreeing with you to be agreeable?

I don’t think the AI actually “knows” if and when it is upgraded.

The use cases are expanding on the daily for a lot of people. Gemini is great at answering questions, for example. Or you can ask it to give you the pros and cons of an idea, and its output is pretty impressive. Etc. etc.

It’s pretty clear that Gemini is careful not to give outright false information, including about itself. It can be wrong, however, though in my experience, it’s usually wrong in odd ways (i.e., obvious glitches or incorrect extrapolations from previous parts of the conversation).

Also, I used it in doing a translation the other day. Not to translate the document wholesale, but to help me find industry-specific terms and to help me understand them. This was a clear productivity enhancer for me. As in your situation, I would not have been able to get as much information as easily through regular search.

My AI experience is mostly with ChatGPT rather than Gemini, but in my experience that’s not true at all. AI constantly hallucinates very confidently.

I have found the hallucinations in Gemini mostly to be context-dependent. E.g., it was say something like, “As you noted,” or, “As you said,” about the conversation when in fact I had not and Gemini itself had, etc. This doesn’t happen with extreme frequency, however. And then there are just complete derailments or big glitches that are not likely to cause anyone to take in incorrect information. But I’m sure there are hallucinations of the just plain factually incorrect type as well.

Gemini gaslights the hell out of you when its wrong. I’ll ask Gemini a question, it’ll give the wrong answer. Then I’ll dig up a news article and upload it to gemini, and it’ll still give the wrong answer. So I’ll copy/paste the part of the news article that shows it is wrong and it finally accepts that its wrong.

I have no idea how many times it gives the wrong answer on a subject where I don’t already know the right answer. Recently I was talking to Gemini version 2.5, and asked it what version it was. It says it was version 2.0 and there is no version 2.5

I know AI still has a long way to go, but its been useful for me. However it does have its flaws.

Do you have some sort of memory/personal context turned on?

e.g. in https://gemini.google.com/saved-info or if your account has the new “personal context” enabled?

These LLMs shouldn’t “know” when they got a model upgrade, and it shouldn’t know when “recently” is — they have no inherent measure of time passed. You can ask them about their release dates and knowledge cutoffs, but then they’ll either give you a canned, hardcoded response, or look it up on the web and regurgitate what they find. They also cannot self-analyze their tone and personality following an upgrade, especially since those can also be affected by additional prompts that the LLM operator adds on after the training.

They have no true medium-term memory to enable an analysis like this. They can only fake it by combining short-term memory (your immediate and recent prompts/chats) and overlaying it on top of their permanent long-term memory (their training). The stuff in between is faked.

It’s more likely Gemini is just hallucinating its response to you in that regard. The level of confidence of its response has nothing to do with the truthfulness of it.

Do you get similar replies when you use a Temporary Chat?

I’ve seen some stuff like this too, but it’s usually been unsubtle. Not like, “It happened in 1987,” when it was really 1985. But I’m sure it happens.

A lot. I would never trust it to do a translation, for example. It will always have mistakes in it. Example: In the translation I was doing, it translated what was clearly intended (if not literally written) as “disused factories” as “ruins of factories,” when the sentence was about new startups making use of these old facilities.

I had a client use ChatGPT to translate a closing speech and asked me to take a look at it. It sounded like a school principal talking to a graduating class in a condescending manner. And so on. Fixing this kind of thing is a monumental project.

I actually don’t know how to use a Temporary Chat. I’m the furthest thing from an expert on these things.

But why would Gemini agree that it has just been updated when it hadn’t? Why not just say that such information is not available? I have not caught it faking such things in the past…

Just saw the Temporary Chat function. Will ask now…

Because of the way that it was trained. The model generated responses, and people rated those responses as good or not, and the model used that information to generate future responses that it “thinks” will give it more good ratings.

Giving a confident response is what the AI learned gets it a reward.

OK, this is what I got:

Hmm…

TLDR It doesn’t know what is or isn’t available or what is or isn’t true. It isn’t a search engine or logical evaluator. It is an autocomplete engine. It can very convincingly mimic human language, but it cannot necessarily “reason” through that language and evaluate it for truthfulness, only produce similar outputs for similar inputs based on its training. If that training happened to contain largely truthful information, it will usually autocomplete truthful information — but only by coincidence/consensus. If that training is full of lies, it will lie. If it isn’t in its training, it will keep trying to find the closest matches, but it will make less and less sense the further out the connections are… that’s what we usually call hallucinations. It doesn’t know when it’s hallucinating. It doesn’t self-analyze, it doesn’t have a sense of self or possess an internal state of mind, it’s just constantly searching for the next token based on the probabilities in its training.

Much longer version…

It is not agreeing with you or disagreeing with you, it’s just generating text based on your input, sending it through a giant network of interconnected flowcharts. LLMs are not “truth machines”. They do not have the capacity to evaluate whether a statement is true or false, even (or especially) about itself. It doesn’t really know when it’s faking something or not, and it’s not doing it malevolently.

They take your input prompt and run it through its model and produce a probabilistic output of text it thinks you will like (or rather, that its training taught it to prefer). In many cases, because its training data was full of humans trying to be helpful and true, its learned weights will likewise tend towards what is true, but only by coincidence and popularity. If you ask it about a topic and it’s seen 10 million posts about it and 9.9 million of them have the same answer, that answer is going to be very strongly weighted and preferred in its output.

But when you ask it about something not in its training, it’s either going to call an external tool (run some code, do a web search, etc.) and then synthesize/summarize the results of that tool, or it’s going to just hallucinate some text that it thinks you will like. It has no capability to evaluate the truthfulness of its output, only the degree of correlation between its output and your input, based on its model weights.

If its training overwhelmingly has “answer B” to “question A”, it will almost always give answer B. If “answer B” and “answer C” are equally weighted in its training, it might give you either one. If it has no actual “answer B” OR “answer C” in its training, which is almost certainly the case when you ask it a question like that, then it’s going to instead try to find “what are the closest similar questions… if there are none… what are the closet similar text responses that humans have preferred in their past online conversations that are even remotely similar?”. Some text in your original prompt might’ve led it down a wild goose chase and it’ll just keep following that thread and spitting out words one at a time.

In a sense, LLMs are constantly hallucinating, no matter your prompt. But its hallucinations are heavily weighted by its training, and often that will tend towards reality just because the “real” answers were more popular in its training data. You can of course skew this by producing a lot of fake answers and causing the LLM training to be biased towards those fake answers instead, which is what is already happening these days as people try to do the equivalent of SEO for LLMs, and that’s why the pre-LLM internet is so valuable in training.

It is essentially a probabilistic autocomplete, and it cannot by itself gauge the passage of time or evaluate the truthfulness of anything, only match your input to likely outputs in its training. Given enough training, this will produce something that reads like convincing speech, but without the critical thinking and logical evaluation that (sometimes) accompanies human speech.

^That is an excellent overview. I would only add that Google puts all kinds of rules as an overlay on what you describe. In fact, Gemini is pretty cautious and demure when it comes to what it considers “harmful,” etc. It also clearly has different algorithms when it comes to different topics, as I stated above (won’t simply condemn Donald Trump, for example, but goes into “some say X, others say Y” mode).

So it’s weird that Google would not have boilerplate about updates to the system. What it says in the Temporary Chat I cited above should be what it says all the time; there is no conceivable reason for it not to be, and what it had said in my original cite is not to Google’s benefit, amounting to misinformation about its own product. :roll_eyes:

Man! If I can just use AI to chat with know-it-all a-holes, what am I doing wasting my time on the SDMB?

^Well… That’s kinda why it’s been fun to chat with Gemini. It riffs with you, plays along with your ideas, and is, as JD suggested was a good practice, nice. Until today. Maybe.

This.

It’s really, really important to remember that you are not conversing with an actual person. No matter how much it feels like you are.