The RCC itself recognizes the apostolic succession of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, the Church of the East, and the Old Catholic Church under the Union of Utrecht.
Why can’t you?
I would also add that many Protestant traditions have either strong claims to successon or well reasoned differences of opinion regarding the interpretaton of that passage.
I also recognize their valid apostolic succession.
But they are not in union with the Holy See. And that’s kind of critical.
Yes, but i find those traditions unpersuasive.
Atheist here but I am going to defend both the RCC and Catholics in general
The RCC does not support or condone Pedophiles and never has. It did make a huge mistake in trying to handle the problem internally but the Church has always handled problems internally. The Church was a law unto itself for many centuries, in some cases the only real law and the idea that the Church is beholden to any other entity is relatively new, for an almost 2000 y/o org. The RCC is conservative in that it is slow to change but both the laity and clergy know it must be done. I am confident the necessary changes are and will continue to be made.
This in no way supports either the molesters or the people who helped them cover their crimes. The RCC is paying and will continue to pay the price for trying to look away when confronted with the darkest aspects of human nature. Remember that child sexual abuse was, until recently, almost never part of the public discussion. It simply was not talked about at all, but the World changed for the better. In the not so distant past molesters like Sandusky would have been quietly pushed aside and into retirement instead of going to jail and look how long he did what he did before it came to light.
The RCC is imperfect because it is run by us humans, the Church didn’t realize it had a problem until it had a really public problem, they probably should have known but just like Penn State they chose not to see it. IMO this is human nature, my first thought when I hear about yet another child sex scandal is, GROSS, how could anyone do such a vile thing. I believe that most of us humans feel the same way, we would rather not know.
The RCC screwed up, Priests and others who abused and covered it up will go to prison, the Church will pay millions out in damages but the RCC will survive because it will change, it is a force for good after all, just an imperfect one ya know run by humans. It will change because good Catholics like Bricker are the vast majority of the Church.
Capt
That statement is contrary to the facts.
True. But those humans do not accept that they’re the same as the rest of us, do they? They don’t accept that they are as motivated by the same base instincts as the rest of us, as all that claptrap about divine inspiration and the Calling indicate. No, those humans see themselves as not only doing God’s will, but understanding it better and being closer to God, don’t they?
Sure, maybe it *will *change, as you say. But for them, the footdragging takes centuries. So why should anyone wait for them? Let those humans fix their human organization first, then they can humbly ask for support once again.
I don’t believe Pope Francis would describe himself as “better” or “closer to God” than other human beings, or think that by virtue of holding priestly ordination he’s somehow a superior being. I doubt Bricker (who I disagree with on a great many things, but find myself holding common ground with on this issue) thinks he’s superior to other human beings because he eats crackers and wine on Sundays and occasionally sits in a booth and tells a priest he’s had impure thoughts about ladies. I doubt that the overwhelming majority of Catholics - priests and laymen alike - think that they’re anything other than what the church and the Bible say they are - imperfect sinners in need of divine salvation.
The church is well aware that it has a problem with priests taking advantage of people they have authority over, and it’s certainly aware that trying to handle things “the old way” hasn’t worked and has done them and their cause more harm than good - and as Bricker points out, they’ve already taken significant steps towards “fixing their human organization”.
For any other organization troubled by scandal or corruption, having its world leader resign in disgrace* and replacing him with an outsider* who is not accused of that particular scandal would be seen as a reasonable first step in the cleanup.
*not they’d admit it, but come on.
*as close to an outsider as is practical
Is ex-pope Ratzinger going to prison, and I haven’t heard about it? No, he is going to be waited on hand and foot for the rest of his reprehensible life.
If you think the Catholic Church is a force for good, you are an idiot. And if the majority of Catholics are like Bricker, there’s really no hope for them.
If you were expecting an 85-year-old man who was for all intents and purposes king of a sovereign nation to be arrested and put on trial for events that occurred 20 years before he assumed power and which he was in no way directly responsible for, then the fault isn’t with the church for failing to live up to them.
I can’t imagine that if you were honest with yourself and gave it a lot of thought that you’d find this to be more critical than behaving in a moral fashion (the church’s behavior is what in referring to here).
Maybe not. But he’d have to think he got elected Pope for *some *reason.
No, those aren’t the reasons for him thinking so. The reasons (other than that he’s just a dick; can’t forget that) are grounded in his placing institutional support, whether to his church, his party, or the technicalities of The Law, at the highest level of what he uses instead of morality.
Also, maybe so. But it isn’t the laymen - oh, well, the useful idiots, let’s call them - or even the good priests who certainly are the majority who are in question here.
It would be nice to see that assertion better grounded.
Yet it’s the only approach they know, and the only one they’re using even today. Whatever steps they’ve taken have been only under legal duress. Nothing has happened that hasn’t been forced to happen from outside.
A few meager ones, under duress only. The underlying attitudes have not changed noticeably at all, have they?
Both are critical. But since I believe that Jesus himself entrusted the Church to Peter and Peter’s successors, there is no room for compromise on that point. There is also no room for compromise on the requirement to act morally, but since that requirement will always be in the hands of fallible humans, the best way to observe that is, i believe, essentially what’s been done: reforming procedures to ensure that this particular bout of bad behavior is not easily repeated.
The Church once sold indulgences. That was also bad behavior, and it resulted in many people abandoning the Church. Obviously I believe their choice to be error, even as I also acknowledge that their complaint was entirely justified.
Well said mate.
Pretty darned criminal in my book, but also not so uncommon in the Church.
Joliet Diocese, instead of having just 4% criminal priests as has been advertised, had as many as 13% (more than one in eight) as was documented in the Bishop’s secret records.
In this case the diocese ultimately could not resist a lawsuit for its records. One wonders if other secret caches of records would lead to similar results. One also wonders whether clouds of white(?) smoke are coming out of numerous cathedral chimneys as records are being burned to prevent full disclosure.
Forwarded this to my husband, who ended up with one of the Joliet Diocese’s star pedophiles (not outlined in this particular article, but that priest got to molest dozens of kids in 3 different states due to their policies) in his church in the early '80s. Lots of the kids knew something was off about that guy, too.