Was watching 20/20,i think last night. They had the story of the woman who pays crack addicted females to be sterilized. There are advocates and certainly detractors. I’m not sure. Altho I’m pretty darn sure what Sake would say. What do you think?
I think I’d like to be a crack-addicted female for a little while. I’ve been thinking about getting some kind of reversible vasectomy, except that I would have to pay for the operation. As a crack-addicted female, I could get the operation and have that woman pay me for getting it done. Sounds like a win/win situation to me!
Its a little bit unfair because crackheads aren’t that good with making far-sighted decisions. Offering them money (read, more crack) to do whatever is a pretty sure-fire way of getting them to do it. This of course is the same reason they shouldn’t be having any kids. As far as I can tell, its her money, she can do what she wants with it. Its not illegal to be sterilized. Now, if someone campaigned to have the government do this with my money, things would be different.
That’s what I’m always talking about! Individual people going out and working themselves to do what they think is right and not using the government as a tool! Of course, I’m not sure she should be buying th sterilization of crackheads…
Surgoshan----
Why Not?
You think that the crack-whore would be in any condition to care for a disabled ( as a teacher of pre-teens who were crack-babies am not ignorant of the fact) child?
Most of these children are either immediately disposed of, or abandoned shortly thereafter, or kept and abused or if (use of irony here) cared for enough to physically survive is destined by geography etc. to live the course of his/her life as a criminal propegating the future generations of drug abuse, crime, prison and hopelessness.
One must learn by doing things; for though you think you know it you have no certainty until you try.
–Sophacles
I think the debate is over whether or not it smacks of genocide. Those against it are saying it’s aimed at blacks and hispanics, when in reality I think only a handful of women have taken her up on the offer and half of them have been white. I personally don’t have a problem with it, but I dislike kids in general, so I don’t exactly have an un-biased opinion.
Does she make you take a drug test to prove you’re on crack? If not, I may have to lose a few pounds and not shower for a while, and go out there and get myself fixed!
I approve of it.
In an over populated world with limited resources, free breeding is not that good of an idea. Eventually, it leads to the only birth control humans seem to find that works – war. Even then that is flawed, because after wars, human biology kicks into high gear and everyone frantically breeds like crazy to replace the dead.
Then it starts all over.
Voluntary sterilization seems to work only for those which higher education and better living standards than many. They tend also to be the more intelligent. Unfortunately, as they cut down on children, the birth rate among the ghettoes and uneducated rise sharply.
They tend to be the less intelligent. That does no good at all for the national intelligence level.
Forced sterilization has been tried (records of sterilizing the mentally ill and retarded, shortly before WW2) but, unfortunately, not only is that against human rights, but those who make the selections almost always pick on the poor, the minorities and the different.
One of the major problems seems to be in religion. The old ‘go forth and multiply’ bit. People seem to feel that they have a God given right to breed as many rug rats as they can produce. That was OK when we had millions of acres of undiscovered and available lands but not now. I don’t think the verse ment to breed oneselves into standing room only and extinction.
As far as I’m concerned, girls and guys on crack or coke could be paid to get sterilized. It would not hurt at all for some people I’ve met to be gassed in the middle of the night and have their tubes hastily tied also because whatever they breed – and they will breed – is going to be trouble.
A little more sex education in the schools and on television would not hurt either but the moral minority gets their piles in an uproar everytime someone tries to push it. I guess they’d rather have a surplus of babies and STD’s than talk about sinning SEX!
We better get into space and start expanding soon or the stupid asses of this world will wipe us all out.
Mark
“Think of it as Evolution in action.”
There are studies that have shown little or no genetic basis for intelligence, at least as measured by an I.Q. test. It seems that, so long as your genes permit all the normal structures of the human brain to be present, the only factors determining intelligence are upbringing, alcohol/drugs taken by the mother while the baby is in the womb, and alcohol/drugs taken by the kid outside the womb. Beyond that, intelligence level seems like one big crapshoot.
Tracer this is profoundly untrue. Twin studies, adoption studies and (especially!) twin adoption studies have shown that by their teenage years children are much more like their birth parents than their adoptive parents in terms of athletic, academic and social factors. In their earliest years their personalities and attitudes are more similiar to their birth parents, but genetics eventually wins out.
I agree. I do recall when there were some discussions concerning the actions of ‘modern warfare’ vs ‘old style warfare’. In the older times, with primitive weapons, anyone who was brutal, strong and smart enough to follow orders was shoved into the front lines. Intelligence did not count much but stamina did.
After WW2 and Korea and Vietnam, it suddenly began to dawn on someone that we now had a tendency to shove our best and our brightest up to the front lines to get slaughtered. Tests prior to going into the basic armed services weeded out the stupid. We actually left our defectives and our less intelligent ones home to breed, which could lower the national intelligence level. (I mean, look at how many of our current poloticians have never served in the military and the mess they like to get us into that smarter ones might have avoided.)
Mark
“Think of it as Evolution in action.”
MarkSerlin,
By your above remarks I take it you see a correlation between intelligence and money.
"Voluntary sterilization seems to work only for those which higher education and better
living standards than many. They tend also to be the more intelligent. Unfortunatly, as they cut down on children, the birth rate among the ghettoes and uneducated rise sharply.
They tend to be the less intelligent. That does no good at all for the national intelligence level."
‘national intelligence level’? Is that like the Gross National Product? Mark, I think the issue here is education, not intelligence. A child prodigy has just as likely a chance of being raised in a trailer park…now, if we put alcohol in its blood surrogate, that’s a different story.
Instead of sterilizing everyone, how about better education for the underclasses? Or would you just like the decrease of ‘surplus’ population.
You know, Mark, I’ve waited a few days to respond to this, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen a more repellent advocacy of eugenics, classism, elitism and complete contempt for the poor.
For about 99% of history, the people you describe have been the ones doing all the work, doing all the reproducing, making all the money and doing all the living. What the fuck makes you think you’re suddenly qualified to decide who is and isn’t permitted to breed?
Wow, the better educated tend to be more intelligent. What a remarkable discovery. Here’s an idea: Why don’t we simply educate everyone a little better, and raise the world standard of living?
Which “ghettoes” would those be? The ones with the Jews, or the ones with the blacks?
Do we even have that? And what exactly is your contribution?
“Unfortunately”? Are you serious?
You mean just like you’re proposing?
We aren’t even close. Hell, you can fly from coast to coast, and can’t tell that anyone lives in 90% of the areas you see.
Quick, call Randi! Someone can predict the behavior of unborn children! Hey–will you volunteer to be first for this little program?
“Come on, Phonics Monkey–drum!”
There is a strong undercurrent of fear related to population growth that some people seem incapable of comprehending, and so they slam the trump card of racism down and go home happy.
A 2% population growth means the population doubles every 14 years. At current world growth rates, before I am a grandfather there will be over thirty billion people on this earth. Standing room isn’t the issue. Its planting room, and refuse room. The poorest areas, and most crowded (India, China) will be having serious civil and regional wars within the next 10 years.
This is a serious problem, and very serious solutions need to be discussed. Babbling about educating people better is not going to solve it.
And with that, this thread merges onto the overpopulation-discussion highway alongside http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000474.html .
Its always like this isn’t it? 
Thank you tracer for showing me once again the circular nature of everything…
Sorry if I came off a bit rude earlier.
Cooper, the question here is who do you consider ‘valuable’? Mark seems to think the value of people increases with money. If education increases the value of people, how great it would be to have India filled with Einsteins. But no, their poor, so they’re a problem.
OK. I think some of you misunderstood what I was saying. (Like THAT never happens on any message board.)
I’m for sterilization to limit breeding in lie of fallible voluntary plans. I do not advocate that just the lower classes or the stupid be sterilized. Money does not mean good people. All I pointed out was that when such a plan was instituted prior to WW2, the well off ‘administrators’ of the plan started going after the poor and anyone else who did not fit their ‘standards’ of an ideal being. initially it was designated to sterilize the mentally retarded because of the high, proven potential for them to breed retarded children. (That debate, by the way, is still going on today.) Then they decided to include people like poor prostitutes and their children, those with poverty level incomes and low education and so on.
I wholeheartedly agree with better education for the ‘under classes’ but am also aware of the current trend towards private schools because the ‘under classes’ seem to delight in killing off kids in school as well as teachers. Plus the reluctance of any government authority to really clamp down on schools and straighten things out, as well as keep funds away from schools and teachers, leads me to feel that public education is slipping.
It’s kind of hard to give a kid a good education when college grads are working at McDonnell’s and drug dealers make $2000 a day in profit with little effort. Besides, you can educate many people but being smart does not affect stupidity in many areas. I’ve talked with many a well educated person only to find that they cling doggedly to various religious and cultural ‘rights’, even though those beliefs can be socially and progressively retarding.
EXAMPLE: The Catholic Church will NOT promote birth control of any artificial form. They will promote the often fallible rhythm method.
Many well educated Black members of the Nation Of Islam, who dabble in education, health care and politics, absolutely believe in a twisted version of the Muslim religion that dictates that White people are Devil spawn, put on Earth to harass the Black people.
In several nations, even the well educated and worldly wise leaders believe that, in their country’s, women should not have any civil rights nor be allowed to hold any power positions.
In several nations large families are traditionally encouraged, even though they have over populated their lands virtually to standing room only and people who do work make slave wages and work often in dangerous conditions.
This is done and allowed by smart, well educated people. I have time, and time again observed that the very wealthy also always look out ONLY for their own interests. Check on the price fixing of the American Dairy industry found at the Citizens Against Government Waste website, which is a long established government watchdog organization.
Often, diary farmers will kill surplus calves rather than sell or give them to meat farmers, who they see as some form of competition.
Being well educated does not mean smart. Besides, it is always the well educated governments who decide to whip their people in a fury against someone else and go to war. The average person has no desire to wipe out his neighbor, who is not bothering him, until his leaders assure him that it is necessary.
Do you have a better plan to educate all people? Our government is rapidly letting our schools go to hell while quietly encouraging private institutions to fill the gap – which seems suspiciously like going back a couple of hundred years to where only those who could PAY could get an education.
We have a huge lower class population. Hell, I’m one of them. I went from a good job making a wage that made me lower middle class to below poverty level when I became disabled. The businesses I delt with while working changed their attitudes towards me when I stopped spending a lot of cash. Plus, people I deal with see me driving an old, rusty car, wearing often old clothing and buying cheap foods and look down on me. So, I know about the lower class.
I also know, from being in the medical and psychiatric professions, that yuppies tended to cut down on having children due to the popular advertisement campaign and the sharp increase in crime. I observed first hand the massive increase in children among certain minorities, especially in two where the man goes and has kids by about 4 or 5 different women and no one thinks anything of it! In a certain economical class, I’ve observed families having 3 or 4 kids because ‘they want kids’ or they ‘came from big families’. Mom and Dad make minimum wage, but they just gotta have those 4 kids.
Any further questions or besmirching my intentions?
Mark
“Think of it as Evolution in action.”
OK, now for you.
pldennison
Member posted 11-19-1999 10:56 AM
You know, Mark, I’ve waited a few days to respond to this, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen a more repellent advocacy of eugenics, classism, elitism and complete contempt for the poor.
For about 99% of history, the people you describe have been the ones doing all the work, doing all the reproducing, making all the money and doing all the living. What the fuck makes you think you’re suddenly qualified to decide who is and isn’t permitted to breed?
quote:
Voluntary sterilization seems to work only for those which higher education and better living standards than many. They tend also to be the more intelligent.
Wow, the better educated tend to be more intelligent. What a remarkable discovery. Here’s an idea: Why don’t we simply educate everyone a little better, and raise the world standard of living?
SEE MY PREVIOUS POST FOR THE ANSWER.
quote:
Unfortunately, as they cut down on children, the birth rate among the ghettoes and uneducated rise sharply.
Which “ghettoes” would those be? The ones with the Jews, or the ones with the black?
A GHETTO IS A GHETTO, WHICH IS WHERE PEOPLE OF A LOWER CLASS GATHER NO MATTER WHAT RACE OR RELIGION. (NITWIT!) TO STATE THAT EVERYONE IN AMERICA IS EQUAL IS A NICE LIE, BECAUSE SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS.
quote:
They tend to be the less intelligent. That does no good at all for the national intelligence level.
Do we even have that? And what exactly is your contribution?
(SIGH) YOU ARE AN IRRITATING BASTARD. YES, THERE IS A NATIONAL AND WORLD WIDE INTELLIGENCE LEVEL. WOULD YOU LIKE A DOCTOR TO OPERATE ON YOU WHO HAS AN IQ OF 50 OR ONE WHO HAS AN IQ OF 150? BESIDES, OTHERS, NOT JUST MYSELF, HAVE NOTICED THAT THOSE OF LESS INTELLIGENCE ARE MUCH MORE LIKELY TO BE LED INTO CRIME, RACIAL ACTIONS, RELIGIOUS ACTIONS, AND WAR. THEY ARE EVEN MORE LIKELY TO PREY OFF OF THEIR OWN RACE AND RELIGION THAN SMARTER PEOPLE.
quote:
Forced sterilization has been tried (records of sterilizing the mentally ill and retarded, shortly before WW2) but, unfortunately,
“Unfortunately”? Are you serious?
quote:
not only is that against human rights, but those who make the selections almost always pick on the poor, the minorities and the different.
You mean just like you’re proposing?
GEEZ! DO YOU ACTUALLY ASSOCIATE WITH OTHER PEOPLE OR ARE YOU IN AN INSTITUTION? UNFORTUNATELY, WHICH YOU PICKED OUT SO QUICKLY, WAS MEANT THAT THE ADMINISTRATORS WENT CAST CRAZY. NO PROPOSAL WAS INDICATED. I AM FOR FORCED STERILIZATION FOR THE FOLLOWING; CAREER RAPISTS, PSYCHOPATHS (PROVEN TO BE GENETIC), CAREER VIOLENT CRIMINALS AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE GENETIC FORMS OF SEVERE MENTAL RETARDATION. I AM FOR VOLUNTARY OR PAID STERILIZATION FOR ALL OTHERS WHO CHOOSE TO USE IT.
quote:
People seem to feel that they have a God given right to breed as many rug rats as they can produce. That was OK when we had millions of acres of undiscovered and available lands but not now. I don’t think the verse meant to breed oneselves into standing room only and extinction.
We aren’t even close. Hell, you can fly from coast to coast, and can’t tell that anyone lives in 90% of the areas you see.
YOU ARE A DIPSHIT. WE HAVE MILLIONS OF MILES OF LANDS NOT CONDUSIVE TOWARDS HABITATION. PLUS, PEOPLE TEND TO CLUMP NEAR WHERE THEY WERE BORN OR EASY SURVIVAL OPPORTUNITIES ARE. DROP IN ON INDIA AND TAKE A PEEK. BESIDES, IT HAS REACHED A POINT WHERE ONE MAY NOT GO ALMOST ANYWHERE IN THE STATES WHERE IT SEEMS TO BE SOLITARY AND DESERTED AND NOT FIND SIGNS OF SOMEONE HAVING BEEN THERE BEFORE. USUALLY IN THE SHAPE OF EMPTY BEER CANS. OUT POPULATION IS ALREADY PUTTING A STRAIN ON OUR ABILITY TO ECONOMICALLY SUSTAIN IT. I GUESS YOU HAVEN’T OBSERVED THE HIGH PRICE OF FOOD BECAUSE FARMERS HAVE FOUND GROWING IT TO BE COSTLY AND THE INCREASINGLY LOW AVERAGE WAGES WITH THE INCREASING RIFT BETWEEN THE HAVES AND THE HAVE NOTS. PLUS, EXAMINE MEDICAL CARE. THOSE THAT HAVE, TO PUT IT SIMPLY, LIVE. THOSE THAT CANNOT AFFORD IT, DIE. THAT USUALLY HAPPENS WHEN THERE ARE TOO MANY PEOPLE.
quote:
It would not hurt at all for some people I’ve met to be gassed in the middle of the night and have their tubes hastily tied also because whatever they breed – and they will breed – is going to be trouble.
Quick, call Randi! Someone can predict the behavior of unborn children! Hey–will you volunteer to be first for this little program?
Get your head out of your ass. I know people who are mean and stupid and their kids usually are. I am also aware of the high incidents of lower intelligence in children because the parents had no pre-natal care, poor child rearing skills, allowed their kids to consume lead paint or drink water from lead pipe plumbing in old houses that was all they could afford to live in. I know of mothers who would buy sliced ham and gobble it up, while feeding their kids boiled macaroni and soda. I know of fathers who determinedly taught their kids to hate one race or another or who spent most of the money on booze and drugs. I know of other mothers who let their kids live on one meal a day and spent the government money on drugs or booze. I also know of mentally retarded parents who had retarded children and none ever rose above minimum wage jobs or worse. I know parents now who are going to teach their kids how to steal, how to use drugs and how to hate people of other races and religions because they do.
Do you live in a box or something?
“Come on, Phonics Monkey–drum!”
Cooper
Member posted 11-19-1999 02:30 PM
There is a strong undercurrent of fear related to population growth that some people seem incapable of comprehending, and so they slam the trump card of racism down and go home happy.
A 2% population growth means the population doubles every 14 years. At current world growth rates, before I am a grandfather there will be over thirty billion people on this earth. Standing room isn’t the issue. Its planting room, and refuse room. The poorest areas, and most crowded (India, China) will be having serious civil and regional wars within the next 10 years.
This is a serious problem, and very serious solutions need to be discussed. Babbling about educating people better is not going to solve it.
tracer
Member posted 11-19-1999 02:47 PM
Eesh! Turn down the volume. My ears are still ringing.