Back in the 50’s and 60’s, I can recall numerous discussions on the concept of papal infallibility. It was my understanding that it was the major item of disagreement between protestants and catholics.
In recent years, I can’t recall ever hearing that term at all. In fact, I hear of many catholics challenging the pope on birth control, abortion and homosexuality. In fact, I’ve read of more orthodox catholics like Mel Gibson challenging Vatican II.
Is the concept of papal infallibility dead or dying in the Roman Catholic church?
No, it is not dead, but it is far more circumscribed than the popular understanding of the phrase. This Wikipedia entry is a good survey. In summary, the pope speaks infallibly only when he speaks ex cathedra on a matter of faith and morals. To quote the article:
I thought the following explanation, originally written by David Currie, and reported by some competent Catholic apologists of my acquaintance, was really worthwhile for understanding the differences in Catholic teaching:
Am I correct in thinking that Popes have been very careful to stick to matters of faith and morals, and never say anything ex cathedra that is falsifiable?
Well, for all the furore about Papal Infallibility, there has been a grand total of one (1) dogma pronounced infallibly by a Pope ex cathedra since Vatican I defined the doctrine: the Assumption of Mary, in 1950.
And that is eminently falsifiable, at least theoretically: find the Virgin Mary’s skeleton or corpse, and prove that it was indeed her.
Ecumenical councils have been defining dogma since Nicaea, presumably infallibly. The thing is, a great deal of what they taught is solid Protestant teaching as well: the Dogma of the Trinity, the Two Natures in Christ, etc.
You will often hear of Popes having defined doctrine using the Extraordinary Magisterium, which as far as I can tell (Tom~, Bricker, clarification needed here!), means that while not infallible, it is at a level where every Catholic is obliged to give it full religious assent: Something like, “I may not understand or accept this as a matter of my personal faith, but I accept it as what the Church teaches on the subject, and will attempt to conform my beliefs to its teachings.”
manhattan, that made me think of something; do the Vatican chefs know how to make wiener schnitzel and spaetzle?
Revtim, IMO, it’s not so much that they want to avoid saying anything falsifiable, as they are very careful to stay “inside the lines” of what has already been taught. Think of it as if the U.S. judiciary had 1,800 years of established precedent (instead of just over 200), and SCOTUS believed that said precedent had divine authority. With that kind of weight of history, you want to be very careful with what you say. Plus, Catholics believe that anything defined de fide (of the faith; i.e., central and necessary beliefs) is preserved by God from error. That would correspond to the first two Ds in Polycarp’s excellent list above.
And on preview, Polycarp, you’re correct that the faithful are required to give assent to the doctrinal teaching of the Church as well as the dogma, though I believe that is the ordinary magisterium, not the extraordinary, which IIRC is only exercised by the pope ex cathedra or by a Council with papal assent.
What is usually called Papal Infallibility actually means the common voice of the bishops as spoken through the pope. The pope alone cannot speak ex cathedra.
Well, while we Anglicans, the Old Catholics, and the Orthodox would definitely agree with your position, smiling bandit, the fact of the matter is that Vatican Council I declared that he could, and that’s been the standard for the (Roman) Catholic Church for 134 years now.
Yes, the Pope alone CAN speak ex cathedra. There are only about a zillion cites for this truth, so I’ll offer this one.
When the Pope and the bishops teach one matters of faith or morals with unanimity, supply a definitive judgement, and demand assent from the faithful in that teaching, that is also infallible - but it’s not “ex cathedra”. It’s an exercise of the Extraordinary Magisterium.
The Ordinary Universal Magisterium refers to the unanimous teaching of the Pope and the bishops on a matter, but without a solemn, definitive judgement.
The Ordinary Magisterium is simply to day-to-day teaching office of the Pope and bishops, as a whole. It is not necessarily infallible.
The Code of Canon Law, Can. 752, provides:
Polycarp, I hope that answers your questions. It’s easy to confuse the Ordinary Universal Magisterium and Extraordinary Magisterium and Ordinary Magisterium. Good thing there’s no pop quiz this week!
Others are doing a much better job than I could explaining this. I’d just like to point out to the OP that “American Catholocism” is usually much more liberal than the more traditional strain practiced by the majority of the world’s Catholics.
If anyone could answer this, I’d appreciate it. Is it true Lutherans don’t believe in the Virgin Mary, or something like that? If so, that seems a pretty big difference in P’s and C’s.
Good point. Although there are plenty of conservative American Catholics.
It depends on what you mean by “believe in the Virgin Mary.” Certainly Lutherans, along with the rest of Protestants, believe she existed; as denominations, and probably the majority of the membership, they believe in the Virgin Birth. Very few of any branch of Protestantism, but a fair number of Anglicans, believe in prayers seeking her intercession.
As regards Catholic Marian dogmata, none of them are popularly accepted by more than a very few Protestants. That would include the Perpetual Virginity, the Immaculate Conception, and the Assumption, as well as the popular devotional titles of Queen of Heaven and Co-Mediatrix (which doesn’t mean what it sounds like, by the way, a particularly sore point).
Probably all creedal Protestants would agree to the doctrine of the Theotokos, once it and the reason for it are explained to them. I know it’s affirmed by reference in Lutheran, Anglican, and Methodist doctrinal statements, but odds are that you could pool a thousand members of those denominations before getting an accurate statement of it.
