Parenting: Discipline for Accidental Actions

[April_R]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

5-year-olds can clean just fine, if there’s no broken glass.

Dang straight! Even if there is glass, after I have swept it into a pile or vacuumed it up, they will help me move it to the dust pan or take the vacuum canister to the garbage. I am a mean mommy.

As for the poster above who brought up an interesting point about gender dynamics and differences in expectations, I don’t know if it is because I have boy/girl twins (now 5years old!) or I just think differently when it comes to gender responsibilities, but I think that my son and my daughter should be equally responsible for their carelessness physically and thoughtlessness emotionally. They are both expected to share, be careful when playing, no hitting, etc. I cannot treat them differently because one is a boy and one is a girl, discipline wise. They have plenty of things to worry about because of their genders, but responsibility for their actions and thoughts shouldn’t be one of them.

[April_R]

@Shakes

This reminds me of a conversation I had with my then 2yo son:

My son has grabbed a soda bottle off my night stand to steal a drink. While holding it, he accidentally spills a little on to the floor:

Son: “BAD lil’ Shakes”

Me: “It’s alright buddy, It was an accident.”

Son: [Deliberately pour more on to the carpet]

Me: “lil’ Shakes!”

Son: “It’s OK, it was an accident.”

Me: :smack:

As to the OP context is everything. The only time I’d ever scold my children was when they would set their open containers on the carpet next to their game console.

Spilling something that was setting on a table is a non issue for me.

Awww, he is a smart little stinker

[WhyNot]

@MandaJo

This is where I get confused about "natural consequences: take three situations, with, say, a 13 year old boy:

[ol]
[li]Is reaching for the butter, misjudges where the milk is, and knocks it over. Genuine accident that comes from mild carelessness.[/li][li]Throws a beachball at his brother’s head, misses, and knocks over a glass of milk. Fully foreseeable accident.[/li][li]Is angry about 300 things, most of which his parents don’t even know about, and when mom hands him a glass of milk and makes a comment that’s supposed to be funny, he throws the glass on the floor, breaking it. A fully intentional act.[/li][/ol]

To me, these events aren’t remotely comparable.<snip>
I am a huge fan of not replacing natural consequences with artificial ones when and if it’s possible. But I don’t think it’s something that can be extended to all circumstances.

The first trick - which you know, or you wouldn’t have written it the way you did, so consider this a rhetorical sentence, not an informational one - is identifying exactly what the problem is. It’s not always obvious.

#2 is how kids find out that rules like “don’t throw balls in the house” aren’t there because I’m a grumpus, but because shit happens. So if they don’t like that rule, they’re welcome to find another one that prevents the spilled milk. Maybe they’d like a sippy cup that can’t spill? I mean, sounds silly, but if the milk is the only damageable thing in the room and they can find a way to spillproof it because it’s that important to them to toss the beachball in the house, go for it. I’m about the results (not spilling the milk), not the means. In the meantime, clean up the milk.

In #3, the natural consequence of the spilled milk and broken glass are obvious, and it still needs to be cleaned up. But the real problem is the inappropriate display of anger. The milk is a symptom, not the problem.

How would (did) I handle it? By asking the kid what he needed. By telling him what I needed (for that not to happen, 'cause it scared the shit out of me and made me feel unsafe in my own home). And by trusting him that he wasn’t actually an asshole, and really wasn’t enjoying this any more than I was, and together we work to fix it.

For my son, it meant some education on the rate of Depression in our family history (very high!), going to see a psychiatrist and getting him on Welbutrin, and when that didn’t work, taking him off medication and finding him an online CBT course because we couldn’t find a local CBT therapist that would take his insurance. This was after he did some research into various therapies available in our area and not available in our area, and choosing CBT because it has good outcome rates and wasn’t too “talky” for him. Three years later, and he’s found some productive outlets for his anger (working out and chopping firewood being good therapy for him) and things are good again.

For others, it might be joining an afterschool activity to relieve boredom, for another it might be working a soup kitchen to build empathy. Others might need to find an elsewhere to live for a while - a previously noncustodial parent, a boarding school, an uncle’s house…

Dunno. I can’t give you a one size fits all answer, because one size doesn’t fit all. “Natural consequences” is short hand for “teach the kid to solve his own problems so that he knows the process of problem solving, not a list of a single solutions (mine) to specific problems.”

I rarely say never, so I won’t claim it will work for every neurotypical non mentally ill kid for every problem, but I will say I think it should be the strategy of first resort. I just don’t see where grounding or other “punishments” has taught anyone anything, ever, except the importance of not getting caught next time. It creates sneakier better criminals, but that’s rarely my goal in parenting.

[MandaJo]

@WhyNot

The first trick - which you know, or you wouldn’t have written it the way you did, so consider this a rhetorical sentence, not an informational one - is identifying exactly what the problem is. It’s not always obvious.

#2 is how kids find out that rules like “don’t throw balls in the house” aren’t there because I’m a grumpus, but because shit happens. So if they don’t like that rule, they’re welcome to find another one that prevents the spilled milk. Maybe they’d like a sippy cup that can’t spill? I mean, sounds silly, but if the milk is the only damageable thing in the room and they can find a way to spillproof it because it’s that important to them to toss the beachball in the house, go for it. I’m about the results (not spilling the milk), not the means. In the meantime, clean up the milk.

And if the kid is fine with cleaning up the milk each time, is that acceptable? I think “no throwing balls in the house” isn’t just because “you might spill milk”, it’s because “A whole bunch of things might happen that your immature brain just can’t imagine”. Like I said, that doesn’t mean you have to ground them, but you also don’t have to wait until they work through every potentially breakable thing in the house to guide them to gently see the connection. I’ve always gotten the impression that “natural consequences” involves letting kids discover those consequences for themselves, but I think there’s a time and a place for Long Boring Talks, which do not happen in nature.

In #3, the natural consequence of the spilled milk and broken glass are obvious, and it still needs to be cleaned up. But the real problem is the inappropriate display of anger. The milk is a symptom, not the problem.

How would (did) I handle it? By asking the kid what he needed. By telling him what I needed (for that not to happen, 'cause it scared the shit out of me and made me feel unsafe in my own home). And by trusting him that he wasn’t actually an asshole, and really wasn’t enjoying this any more than I was, and together we work to fix it.

For my son, it meant some education on the rate of Depression in our family history (very high!), going to see a psychiatrist and getting him on Welbutrin, and when that didn’t work, taking him off medication and finding him an online CBT course because we couldn’t find a local CBT therapist that would take his insurance. This was after he did some research into various therapies available in our area and not available in our area, and choosing CBT because it has good outcome rates and wasn’t too “talky” for him. Three years later, and he’s found some productive outlets for his anger (working out and chopping firewood being good therapy for him) and things are good again.

For others, it might be joining an afterschool activity to relieve boredom, for another it might be working a soup kitchen to build empathy. Others might need to find an elsewhere to live for a while - a previously noncustodial parent, a boarding school, an uncle’s house…

Dunno. I can’t give you a one size fits all answer, because one size doesn’t fit all. “Natural consequences” is short hand for “teach the kid to solve his own problems so that he knows the process of problem solving, not a list of a single solutions (mine) to specific problems.”

I would not describe any of that as “natural consequences”. I might call it “child centered” or “self-directed” or something, but it’s not just letting the chips fall where they may and having the kid figure out how to deal with that.

I rarely say never, so I won’t claim it will work for every neurotypical non mentally ill kid for every problem, but I will say I think it should be the strategy of first resort. I just don’t see where grounding or other “punishments” has taught anyone anything, ever, except the importance of not getting caught next time. It creates sneakier better criminals, but that’s rarely my goal in parenting.

See, I think you are overextending “natural consequences” to describe “stuff I think is effective” and underextending “punishments” to describe “stuff I think is ineffective or ever counter-productive”. There are a lot of people that would describe having to work in a soup kitchen or go live with their uncle or see a therapist as “punishment”. Certainly people would call letting your kid see how upset you were and talking about it a punishment (“What did you mom DO?” “She made me feel guilty as shit and lectured me on the family history for like an hour. Then she made me research therapists and crap” “Oh, dude, that’s rough”.)

In reality, Whynot, I think you are selling yourself short. I think that for years you’ve been developing a complex and nuanced approach to child psychology (I almost called it child rearing, but it’s more adult rearing, I think), much of which is based on your own insight, experience, and reflection. I think it’s well beyond the “natural consequences” label, which is one of a long string of attempts to find a simple solution to the complex problem of parenting. You know damn well there isn’t a simple solution, you’ve never acted like there is a simple solution, but you keep referring to a book that, frankly, I think you transcended a long time ago.

[Troppus]

@Sattua

When I was four I knocked over a glass of orange juice at the breakfast table and it splashed all over the wallpaper and dripped on the carpet. My dad yelled at me and sent me to my room, where I lay on my bed and sobbed. I still remember the incident and don’t think his reaction was the right one.

Have you seen the movie Regarding Henry? Harrison Ford’s character was a volatile, exacting father who parented by intimidation until he was injured. Afterward…well, hey, no spoilers, but maybe you can find the movie? It’s awesome, and the scene at the table informed me about how to be a parent.

Grown-ups spill, too, is the takeway. Kids are clutzier, but no one is exempt from the occasional spill or broken dish.

[WhyNot]

@MandaJo

And if the kid is fine with cleaning up the milk each time, is that acceptable?

Only if they’re buying it! I’m not quite as hard core as some L&L parents. I don’t require my kids to pay me for a pantry supper if they’re not eating what I make. But at some point, one of the consequences to wasting milk is there’s no more milk unless you buy it, kiddo. If I has a persistent milk spiller, I’d strongly consider buying one gallon for “my” milk and a half gallon for “their” milk, and their milk would only be replenished on a set schedule unless they bought their own with their own earned money. And, of course, only if they’re capable of cleaning it up thoroughly - I didn’t let my <2 year old keep smearing spaghetti sauce on the wall, because she wasn’t capable of thoroughly cleaning it up, and that made more work for me.

But here’s my biggest problem with these “what if” parenting threads - a whole lot of it is hypothetical for me, because my methods work for me, and for my kids, and for the kids I babysit and nanny, and so I don’t see these problems as persistent and recurring outside of hypotheticals. That’s what so frustrating for me - I say, “here’s what I do” and people say, “so what if that doesn’t work?” And I’m sitting here mostly thinking, “but…it does work.” or “then you haven’t identified the real problem yet.” I don’t claim it will work for the mentally ill, for sure. But I simply and honestly haven’t found a “normal” kid it doesn’t work for.

I would not describe any of that as “natural consequences”. I might call it “child centered” or “self-directed” or something, but it’s not just letting the chips fall where they may and having the kid figure out how to deal with that.

See, I think you are overextending “natural consequences” to describe “stuff I think is effective” and underextending “punishments” to describe “stuff I think is ineffective or ever counter-productive”. There are a lot of people that would describe having to work in a soup kitchen or go live with their uncle or see a therapist as “punishment”. Certainly people would call letting your kid see how upset you were and talking about it a punishment (“What did you mom DO?” “She made me feel guilty as shit and lectured me on the family history for like an hour. Then she made me research therapists and crap” “Oh, dude, that’s rough”.)

That’s certainly possible. I guess I’m pretty old school in my definitions. Punishment is an unpleasant stimulus or removal of a pleasant stimulus intended to *weaken or extinguish *a behavior. I don’t think it’s very effective. What I do isn’t about weakening the behavior per se, it’s about presenting and reinforcing alternative behaviors. It’s designed to *increase *the behavior I want; it’s actually positive and/or negative reinforcement (“Yes! I like that idea! What other ideas do you have?” or “Of course we can go to the park, after you’ve finished your homework.”), which only incidentally extinguishes the behavior I don’t like. Perhaps that’s splitting hairs in parenting, but it was a pretty important distinction to Skinner.

In reality, Whynot, I think you are selling yourself short. I think that for years you’ve been developing a complex and nuanced approach to child psychology (I almost called it child rearing, but it’s more adult rearing, I think), much of which is based on your own insight, experience, and reflection. I think it’s well beyond the “natural consequences” label, which is one of a long string of attempts to find a simple solution to the complex problem of parenting. You know damn well there isn’t a simple solution, you’ve never acted like there is a simple solution, but you keep referring to a book that, frankly, I think you transcended a long time ago.

Aw, thanks! I don’t think I’ve transcended it so much as am beginning to forget the vocabulary, 'cause it’s been a while since I’ve read it. But figuring out how you screwed up, why you screwed up, how to fix it and do better next time…I think that is natural consequences. That’s what I have to do as an adult. Maybe it’s not what many people mean by the term, but it’s certainly what the L&L books teach parents to do. Maybe people do just mean “clean up the milk” and that’s an end to it. But I’d argue that it’s because they’re selling themselves and the phrase short, and not allowing ALL the natural consequences to be fully explored, only the most immediate and obvious.

[Sam_I_Am]

Together we deal with the repercussions of the accident, and determine if anything needs to change to lessen the chance of it happening again.

@SpoilerVirgin

I would think that a lot would depend on the reaction of the child to the situation. I was just thinking this morning about an incident in my childhood when I did something accidently, and how kind and gentle my father was with me, making me realize that accidents happen and that I was not to blame. Of course, I was the kind of child who was mortified by any mistake I made, and had a lot of anxiety and fear. My reaction to breaking a glass would have been to burst into tears and beg for forgiveness. For a child like that, comfort rather than punishment is necessary. That would also apply to the child who was devastated and fearful if he ran a red light, cut himself, or got someone pregnant.

OTOH, for a child who doesn’t care, or doesn’t recognize the consequences of his actions, more severe repercussions are required. A child who routinely spills milk and says, “What difference does it make?” or tries to avoid blame, needs to learn that those reactions are unacceptable. That child should also be praised for efforts to avoid accidents, and trained in being attentive and careful.

I try not to change my response based on the kids’ reaction. I was very young when I realized I could manipulate that.

[overlyverbose]

With respect to the milk, both my kids in some way would be expected to help me clean it up. I’m not going to punish them for it (I’m responsible for the vast majority of broken glasses and plates, not my children), but I might comment that they need to be more careful. The only thing that might elicit punishment is a refusal to help. If it involved broken, glass, they’d be standing someplace safe and would be responsible for holding paper towels or something.

The red light is totally preventable, though, and much more dangerous. If I were in the car with them and they had knowingly run a red light, they wouldn’t be driving again for a while. If it were almost red, then we’d discuss the purpose of yellow lights.

If it’s pregnancy we’re talking about, that’s infinitely more complicated.

[MandaJo]

I thought of a good example of my earlier point about gender roles: if a boy throws something and almost hits someone, he’s likely to be told “Watch where you throw that”, with the implication that he could do better; a girl is likely to be told “Whoa, you have terrible aim”, like it’s just part of who she is.

[sidhechaos]

don’t have kids but very vivid memories od getting hurt or being sick and my mom getting really upset with me. I know now its because she was scared and worried, but at 9 years old I cut my finger to the bone and didn’t tell her, I got the sewing kit and put stitches in my own finger and then tried to hide by wearing gloves all the time saying my hands were cold. the look on her face when she did find out…

I;m also very emetephobic (fear of puking) because of her getting upset, again, I know now she wasn’t mad or anything, the 'oh god no, why are you puking" and her being frantic (when she was normally very reserved and controlled) was her fear and worry. It’s probably why when disasters happen (either to me or others) I pretty much go Vulcan til everything is resolved,** then** have a nervous breakdown.