Parents of Jailbirds; nature or nurture?

In My Humble Opinion
1

I have only one child. He is now 35 years old and is in and out of jail/prison. He was raised right for the most part. I am not, nor ever professed, to be perfect. He is currently incarcerated in Fl state prison for less than a year at this point. He is a total disappointment to me but I still love him and try to support him financially when I can.

I met my hubby of almost 31 years when sonny boy was a wee six months of age. Hubs had two children from his first marriage whom we had every other weekend and are thriving and love us and never forget me on Mother’s Day. They each have children I consider my own grandchildren. My hubs adopted my son formally when he was around 3 ish and we changed his name.

I am so embarrassed about my son. His adopted Father has given up but my heart aches. What did I do wrong? My boy is not a bad person at heart but he is a con artist. His crime sheet is so long I stopped keeping track. He cannot “do” probation. Presently he is incarcerated for VOP.

My eldest brother is fighting cancer of the tonsil and needs financial help. I am torn between making sure sonny boy has snacks or brother has ensure or electricity.

The probation my son violated was from an auto accident he had while driving with a suspended license. He was injured and he left the scene seeking help. He was in fact put on life support due to a broken blood vessel in his cheek area which caused his throat to swell shut. I will never forget that day. Hubby was away, girlfriend texted me and I was sick and was home on sick leave. I wrote a note on my computer at that time " Lord, just take him or spare him; it’s out of my hands".

I received a phone call from the hospital as next of kin and the nurse asked if I was going to come there? Did I want her phone number? I said “No, girlfriend will keep me informed”.

He survived and is currently serving his time far away from where I live. I have in my mind decided he is a lost cause. But, I do still love him. How can children be so different that were raised the same way? Nature or Nurture?

I know I will regret posting this tomorrow in the clear light of day. Please be kind. My worst horror is my Mumper friends will not be my friends anymore.

2

Some people just are what they are, hon. Want an anecdote?

My grandfather was one of eight children of Dutch Reform minister. He wanted to be a minister himself. Ended up working in the post office. His three sisters and three of his brothers all led nice, solid, middle class lives. No trouble with the law at all. One of them even got a Ph.D. and taught English to reservation kids in New Mexico. Very heartwarming, all of it.

Except the oldest brother. He was a bonafide stinker. He drank, fought, forged, conned, tricked, stole, and repeatedly left his wife hanging with their four kids and no support or word of his whereabouts for months at a time. Was in and out of jail all his life. Died in a fire in a fleabag motel when he was about fifty.

Why was he the way he was? Well, he just was. You’re a mother. You know that they have personalities the instant they come out, way before nurture has any chance to get to them.

3

I have seen this in plenty of families. Parents do the best they can, but when the child becomes an adult, he/she makes his/her own decisions. Your son appears to have spent considerable time making wrong decisions. You cannot blame yourself for this. You can, however, come here and vent, complain, or whatever else you need.

Plus, any Mumper who gives you grief will be the recipient of an extra large box of especially pissed off pointy stick weilding Sri Lankan paratrooper ninja spiders.

{{{Butters}}}

4

Well I’ve posted my story on here before so apologies to those who have heard it, but I definitely feel for you. I had two sons . They both were raised the same. The oldest started giving problems basically from the time he started school. I suspect now he was ADHD and at that time it just wasn’t diagnosed… I remember hearing about it but not really knowing much.

Anyway fast forward to teenage years… He got kicked out of school for marijuana caught on him. We had to get a lawyer for that! He never got his GED like he promised then it was a string of wrecks and trouble with small stuff . No violence against others ,usually just drugs etc;
He was in and out of jail many times. He never went to prison. He tried suicide once when his Dad and I called the law . That was really hard on our hearts . He sliced his arm open while I in same room and I didn’t realize it till I heard blood dripping. He almost bled out then.
I really am sorry for what you are going through! I can honestly say I believe we did all we could humanly do for our son to help him be a good man! I know what it feels like to be questioning yourself and wondering but often you just have to let go of the need to try.

A couple of years ago my son reached such a low point . He had been in jail for about 6 months and had gotten out. He had no way of going. He lived beside us and was about to have his electricity turned off because we couldn’t afford to keep paying it. He had messed up his hand so bad when he cut his arm he could hardly find a job in his trade much less have the means to get to a job . And he was facing being locked up.

So he went over to his 11 year olds son’s mothers house while his son was at school. He had her come pick him up. And then he overdosed.

But once upon a time there was this sweet little boy who used to be his Dad’s little buddy and who used to snuggle with his Mommy.

So regardless of what they become never forget what is in them and always treasure that. I believe you have seen your sons light and goodness. He has lost his way perhaps and he may or may not find his way back.

I’ve struggled with the issues about sending money too. Truly he will make it whether you send it or not. You may gave to draw boundaries to protect your sanity. Just don’t ever stop saying I love you though after you say “no” …
Sorry for the long post … Short answer is I think it can be both or either but if you 've done everything right there is no need to beat yourself up over your son’s choices ! We are all responsible for what we choose. Your only job was to raise him right and love him and if did that then you are not responsible any further.

5

Thank you all.My son never had any violent tendencies except when he was running from the cops and they caught him. He fought them and was charged with battery on a LEO. They beat the shit out of him.

His problems with the law started at the age of 14. He later decide to ride around with a bunch of pot and run a red light resulting in his first major arrest. I have only spent money for a lawyer once and he got off. In hindsight I think he was guilty.

I am so sorry for you parents who deal with this. I also believe my son has Oppositional Defiance Disorder un diagnosed. No matter how many times he is incarcerated,once released,it’s only a matter of time before he is back in trouble.

I only try to see the good but after over 20 yrs of dealing with his shit the bad out weighs the good. I will always love him. If I had it to do over I would be childless. One can only take so much

Sattua. We could be related. I. Have heard similar stories about my ancestors. My hubby was a twin. Back then the doctors did not know twins were coming until they came. Hubby’s father went to the store one day soon after their birth and never came back. My husband has exactly one memory of ever seeing his real Dad and that was while he was in the county jail for non support.

And Swampy. Thank you. I feel better already. Hugs to strangland64. Thank you.

6

I’m not going to stop being your friend. I don’t have much useful advice to give, but I doubt the way you raised your son has had much, if any, effect on his current situation. I hope he can eventually support himself financially.

7

Much like Sattua’s story: my dad was the second of seven children. He had five sisters who all had good, honest lives. His one brother began breaking the law (and getting caught) when he was 14. He died at age 68 because he froze to death on his own front porch because he was too drunk to find his keys (which were in the ignition of the truck he drove there in). I am just grateful my dad was already gone and did not have to hear of one more thing from his brother. None of that was nurture. Some people are just born weak. My uncle was never mean or evil, just weak. Don’t beat yourself up. And anyone who would stop being your friend over this was no damned good as a friend anyhow.

8

{{{Butters}}}
Why would I not be your friend anymore?

Let me tell you a story about a family I know.
They were friends of a long ago bf.
I cant remember if there were 7 or 8 kids total, all but one were men.
When I net the family the oldest son was in jail for life for murder, the youngest was in jail for manslaughter. All of the boys had been in trouble their entire lives for multiple crimes. Their father wad a carny who taught them how to pick pockets, forge checks, B&E, you name they had done it all.
One day I was over there and a name came up I hadn’t heard before. The family was talking crap about him, putting him down, he was the outcast, the outside. I wondered what he could have done all things considered.
What had he done?
He finished high school, went on to college, married a nice woman, had a nice family, moved away and wanted nothing to do with his brothers and sister.
Yes, he was the black sheep of the family. The hoity toity one who thought he was too good for them, the one who broke his mothers heart because he never came around, the brother the family never talked about.

Who knows if it’s nature or nurture. I think it’s a combination of factors. You can only do so much.

9

{{{butters}}}

If you are going to beat yourself up over the misdeeds of one of your kids, keep in mind that 2/3 of them are responsible, law abiding citizens. If it was nurture, you wouldn’t have that kind of batting average.

As an anecdote, my ex and I raised his two kids from his first marriage. Their bio mom was an addict who disappeared when the kids were young. The ex had addiction issues over the years (he’s now clean 22+ years) as did a good share of his family. Even I was a recreational user of a few drugs and we all smoked like chimneys.

The kids? They grew up, both graduated from college, both are in healthy relationships (one even has well adjusted kids). The point:as badly as all of the grownups in their lives screwed up at times, they defied probability and became responsible adults in their thirties. Definitely not all nurture.

You have another Mumper who thinks no less of you and is still your friend. :slight_smile:

ETA: If it comes down to helping your sick brother out wit meds and lights or putting money in the prison commissary, help your brother. BTDT with family.

10

My paternal line looks basically like this:

  1. Midwestern homesteader and farmer (i.e. the “Little House on the Prairie” thing)
  2. Physician
  3. WW1 vet
  4. Drunken loser who was in and out of jail all his life for mostly minor offenses
  5. My father, who was neither particularly successful or particularly not successful
  6. Me
11

So much of it is out of our hands as parents. We’re always the ones blamed but it could be any event that triggers a child to have issues as an adult. I had a lovely life with a good mother who did everything she could for us. I had loving grandparents who protected my brother and me and lots of friends at church, school and in the neighborhood. I wasn’t spoiled but I was the youngest and it certainly had it’s benefits.

I was a problem teen, always getting into trouble, running away, getting high, stealing, hanging out with a wild older crowd. I gave my mother a lot of grief! It’s not her fault. It’s nobody’s fault but my own. Still, what she didn’t know was that from 6-8 I was being sexually abused by my father, and then later by a neighborhood boy. This probably played a big part in my desperation to fit in and please men in any way I could to get them to like me. And that lead me to partying because it was easier to let it go if I was wasted. And that led to stealing to get the money to party and pay my friends’ way too. I am SO lucky I never got caught. That’s what saved me probably that I was good enough at being bad that I never got caught.

Now I’m older and the effects of those childhood incidents has left me so scarred I rarely leave the house. It’s not my mom’s fault I am the way I am. It’s not your fault either. Things happen.

12

Whilst parents do have huge effect, there is no obvious way to predict what the effect will be, the same lessons and the same ideals and personal examples could be given to siblings and yet the outcomes can be completely different, however the tendency is that the more dysfunctional the background, the more that problems are likely to develop.

The trouble is that there are so many exceptions that a anything even slightly approaching a general rule will be impossible.

Predicting the outcome for one individual is hugely difficult, but doing the same for groups or populations is less so. Generally speaking the triggers seem to be socio-economic status and education.

By education, I don’t necessarily mean the stuff you learn in school, its the whole life learning experience, and you do not get to control that at all, because we all take different things from each and every learning opportunity - which is what makes education a fascinating subject.

One of the major influences of pretty much everyone is peer evaluation, we all want to belong fit in and find our own role and standing within our social group - falling in with the wrong crowd has a significant impact.

My observation is that criminals largely have appalling standards of numeracy and literacy - frequently below that of a 10 year old, and not rarely below that of a 7 year old. Add to this very poor reasoning skills, fixed concrete thinking patterns - with little or no capacity for path divergent thought - they frequently do not have the tools to think of other alternatives, such as walking away from a situation.

Despite this, prisoners seem to have both a huge ego, and yet an inferiority complex at the same time, maybe one facet is trying to overcompensate for the other.
My own view, is that whatever a parent does, ensuring their children have the ability to learn throughout life, is key to ensuring they are employable, and its employability that puts them in contact with a peer group of working people - and that really is one of the best ways to educate a child that there is.

13

I’ve encountered a number of ex-cons in my life and one counter-example seems to be sex offenders. A lot of them are reasonably well-educated (literate, high school grad, may even have a college degree), and had a fairly mundane middle-class life up until the law caught up to them. The problem was that they were perverts and/or sex addicts and ended up diddling some kid or something. I met a well-articulated ex-teacher who completely trainwrecked his career via his crime and will never teach again. He’s still a smart guy. Also met a former IT guy who spent ten years in prison for a sex crime involving a child who likewise wrecked his career. Ten years out of IT is like trying to learn to use a computer after having lived in Amish Country all your life. Combined with a sex-crime record that means no tech company will bite, and will in fact wash their ten-foot pole with soap and water afterwards.

14

In my old town I knew some adopted kids who had the best parenting you could imagine and still turned out bad. (I also knew adopted kids who turned out great.) So don’t blame yourself.
Does your son take responsibility for his actions, or it is always the fault of someone else.
I’d go with money for your brother myself.

15

First,

Sympathies for the OP. Some things are beyond your control through no fault of your own.

Now, random story.

I know of a guy, who had a son, who had a son.

Male two was not remotely raised by male one. Male three not remotely raised by male two.

ALL THREE are know it all, butt headed, think the rules aren’t meant for them, think they can get away with shit (but don’t), rinse lather repeat types.

Now, I don’t know how male one was raised, but I am pretty darn sure two was raised well, and I high suspect three was a well.

The only saving grace for all three is their flaws mostly don’t involve serious jail time (though that hammer could likely drop any time to be honest).

16

Moved MPSIMS --> IMHO.

17

I suspect it is some of both, but more nature. You can do the best you are capable of and each child will turn out differently. So obviously nature has a lot to do with it. Our oldest wanted to rule the house, from almost the beginning. We made the mistake of sending her to our (at the time) church’es school for a year then laughingly called her the “defender of the family morals”. She was a tyrant to her brother and sister. Her sister came out of the womb adoring the oldest, she would say (even as an adult) “My sister” as reverently as some people say “my god”. Their brother would have been pretty easy going if he hadn’t had to defend himself from the eldest constantly. Frankly if I had to do it all over again I would have gotten sterilized before I got married. The best I can say for them is that they aren’t in jail.

I had a friend who waxed eloquently about the joys of raising children she said it was so rewarding. She was a nurse on night shift and from the time the kids were little she figured she was there even if she was asleep all day. The neighbors didn’t find her kids as rewarding as she did. Especially when they painted one neighbors car, it also bothered her when the baby got into the trash and ate cigarette butts, and god knows what other lovely things they did while mom slept.

While there were times when it was fun , most of the time I found raising 3 stair steps just plain hard work with no reward in the end. I still shudder at the thought of teenagers. You couldn’t pay me enough money to do it again.

18

It can go the other way. What I mean is I should have been a criminal. I had every opportunity as I was raised by people that were thieves and con-artists. I was taught to pick locks before I was a teenager. Going into other peoples houses to take things was an accepted thing to do. Having an arrest record was perfectly normal in my family. The art of dirty fighting was encouraged as was drinking and womanizing.

But I got good grades, went to a 2 year college while working as a janitor, and joined the Army to “escape”. Trust me, nurture would have had me in prison by now.