The Iraqi national army is not the Kurds nor the militias
as gigo writes
exactly what has been documented, plus the corruption in the army versus the militias
that is why I highligted the political component, it is not the national Iraqi army that is effective.
That’s if we’re lucky. We could easily be training and arming our enemies.
[QUOTE=carnivorousplant]
Thank you, John.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t think thats the case. While the “uneducated” meme is popular as a simple explanation; it does not hold up to scrutiny; militants tend to be more educated then most; 3/4 London bombers were University grads, while the fourth was married to a white woman.
I do think that the US does a better job at integration than any European country bar none. People are very much invested in the US and they are, feel and are generally considered “American”. In Europe, their “outsider” status is hard to get away from, even after generations in place.
Its the intangibles that matter.
Yes,I add this is the most important
the commonality is young, motivated males seeking meaning and feeling excluded socially. The idea that the DAESH has a well-constructed religious appeal is not founded on reality. they are appealing to the romantic action and meaning sought by a profile of disaffected youth.
For the continental europe like the France you can see it in the language.
Too many French will refer to any African origin, any Maghrebine origin person as an “immigrant” even though they are third generation born in France. Indeed if you meet a Maghebine origin French, the liklihood he is native French born is high, of the 3.5 millions or so of the Maghrebine origin in France, about 2 million are native born in France. (2005)
You do not see this in the anglo-saxon countries.
Is the US an “anglo-saxon” country? Because you do see that here with Asians and Hispanics.
In the US in the 1970’s you didn’t see a lot of 3rd generation micks sneaking back to Ireland to join the IRA, but its biggest source of revenue was collection boxes in bars for NORAID. Of course, the cover story was that if was all about taking the poor kids of Belfast and Derry off to summer camp.
Is it really that hard to recruit 50,000 young guys if the come-on is a license to kill and rape? Dress it up with religious righteousness and restoration of the caliphate, sure. But killing and rape is an inducement right up there with forgiveness of student loans.
I do not understand your comment. I have never heard an american call someone 3rd generation an “immigrant.”
Yes in French usage we call the USA “anglo saxone” - it only means English speaking and political tradition.
Whilst I agree with AK84s comments on them being highly educated, a substantial majority do not agree with the liberal values we hold on personal life. Such as gay marriage, children out of wedlock, the types of clothing a woman should wear etc. This is what the disaffection and alienation really means when talked about their motives.
Whilst such views on their own cannot turn someone into a terrorist, they can be used in the construction of a narrative of where their values need to be defended against this type of ‘immorality’ even going to lengths of using violence to state this. It wasn’t surprising that ISIS stated Paris a place of ‘immorality’ for justification of their attacks.
This correlates with what I've said.Did they even try to recruit? I think there was not an effort, no?
Whereas the DAESH does try hard to recruit, they need them. this says something.
No, the IRA knew they already had enough malleable punks of domestic vintage. What they wanted was the Irish-Americans who’d made good in the US to kick in financially.
Now, if there’d been lucrative oifields in N Ireland to capture, and a need for large armies to hold that territory, the story migh be the same.
Well, it happens. And it’s more than just calling someone an immigrant. It’s assuming that they must be. Or that they somehow are not actual Americans like “white people”.
It’s the famous exchange:
White person: Where are you from?
Asian Person: Cleveland.
White Person: No, where are really from?
And, of course, many Hispanics who’ve been here for generations are not only sometimes considered immigrants, but illegal immigrants.
Battle of Camarón. Actually there were 3 survivors, plus one who was supposedly dead and left on the field but recovered, and several that were captured during the battle.
You seem to live in a make believe America. Its not like that amongst the real people I live around.
Anyone who is suggesting that “the west” withdrawing from all involvement in the Middle East will somehow solve the problem. It won’t. All that would happen is that ISIS would consolidate its holdings then find new targets to attack.
I don’t think there is a good solution any longer.
#1 leaves ISIS in power and allows them to consolidate and secure their territory, then push out for more later on as an even more powerful entity. They are a de facto nation now that they hold a defined territory.
#2 is unsatisfactory to “the west” because folks don’t like the notion that a bunch of fanatics are going to randomly pop out of the woodwork and start killing people from time to time.
#3 will inevitably result in war crimes, pictures of dead babies, and a lot of dead innocents. All out war could take all terrirtory away from ISIS and kill a crapload of them, but it it would have to be a massive effort with such other players as Russia and China either on board or willing to be truly neutral for it to work. Given that ISIS is, apparently, also bringing down Russian airplanes you might get Russia to go along with the idea but so far they seem to have left China alone so that’s a wild card. It would, as I noted, result in the destruction of cities and a lot of human lives. Given this is the 20th Century, it will also be broadcast live and unedited on the internet.
Germany didn’t always have the capacity to invade others, for a long while it was a bunch of small, warring states. The capacity to wage serious wars of conquest did not arise overnight.
I’m not saying ISIS could invade, say, Turkey right now but if “the west” withdrew entirely from the Middle East they would be free to build up their holdings and later on create a serious army and go out conquering again. A few iterations of conquer and consolidate and they’ll be much more threatening. They aren’t going to go away on their own.
^ This.
Can they invade France and take it over? No - not right now - but they sure as hell can attack the capital of a first world nation. Take the pressure off them for a few years, or a generation, and they’ll be a lot worse than that. Give them time and breathing room to get/build better weapons and develop better strategies and they’ll be back, but much more effective at killing.
Meanwhile, their attacks are costly in both blood and treasure, it impedes normal life, and I don’t think people will tolerate it indefinitely.
^ Nope, I’ve seen scenario John Mace describes happen, too. It may, however, be less common in America than elsewhere.
Its true. Its all Obama’s fault. Santorum told me so.:rolleyes::smack:
Alternatively, you need to get out more.
You probably live in an area where there are actual minority populations. Most of the people on this board are from lilly white areas where white people act like the butt of 90’s sitcom jokes.
I have to agree. My experience is that it’s a function of accent. People with an accent recognizable as from the US are assumed to be “American.” Meaning as opposed to immigrant.
So then in some places in the USA it is more like the France in seeing any non-North european type look as immigrant and in other places more mixed it is not the case, is this what I can understand?
Correct.
Remember, the US spans across and entire continent. There is significant regional variation, and variation from the most modern, diverse, and urban areas to places are still very much wilderness with few people.
In the middle of Iowa farmland (random example) anyone non-white and non-English speaking is going to stand out. In New York City you get everything and there will much less assumption that a non-Caucasian is foreign.
As another example of regional variation, while visiting Appalachia once on a trip to see my in-laws we stopped at a shop in a small town where the proprietors identified my spouse as being from that area, by which I mean they not only were able to guess his name but also where he was born based on his appearance. Then they turned to me and in all seriousness said “and what country are you from?” It’s because although we were all white I was from a different white ethnicity they they were (they were Scots/Irish/English/French/Native, I’m mostly Russian) and my slavic traits were sufficient to mark me as “foreigner” in that region. And my accent was markedly different from theirs.