Revenant. I don’t need two examples. Give me one example. Give me your one case that you think destroys Kuzari.
Slowly and carefully, we will analyze the case against the sinai history. You invoke 9/11-hoax guys, when you yourself KNOW how irrelevant it is to Kuzari. Everyone believes that 9/11 happened. The issue is whether there was an behind-the-scenes foul play. IS BEHIND-THE-SCENES foul-play a national event? Yes or no? Being vague does not help us in this discussion at all.
Second, the war of the worlds. Again, how do you know that the nation believed that millions of people were frightened? HOW DO YOU KNOW? More importantly, being frightened ISN’T an action. Therefore, there is no way for those who believed that millions were frightened to know that people weren’t frightened. It’s like people who believe that Jews are sinister. There isn’t overwhelming evidence that the Jews AREN’T sinister. SHOW ME AN ACTION, SHOW ME AN EVENT.
Finally, for God sake, please. Show me the commemorations of the war of the world hysteria. Why are you being vague, when we can all see right through it?
Holes are dug after surveys, by the way. You don’t just randomly go sinking shafts. You do that after a survey tells you where to dig. Very accurate surveys can now be done by satellite imaging.
There can’t be evidence against Sinai history. If I say there was a giant civilization in Texas 10,000 ago and ask you to prove there wasn’t you can’t. It isn’t possible. On the other hand there is not evidence other than a book and the belief of many people. Now part of the belief of these people is that they have passed this story down since that even occurred. This is a belief.
No matter how unique you think this tale is, it is a story. Many peoples have had stories that they believed were passed down from long ago. Without evidence of a nature that is physical no one is going to accept it no matter what philosophical arguments you use.
Don’t you fond it interesting that virtually no one outside your religion give this any credence? If the logic is that sound and it make so much sense wouldn’t almost everyone agree? Also they do not.
Yes, it is. I’m not sure how it wouldn’t be. Likewise non-behind-the-scenes foul-play is a national event. Certainly, most people believe 9/11 happened - the question is how, and what, and why. If you require one sole solitary case that I think destroys Kuzari, I think i’d probably plump for the 9/11 truthers, given that it’s more recent.
Please do not tell me what I do and do not know. I consider it very relevant to Kuzari. You have repeatedly prior to this said that I have claimed things that I have not claimed. I am not putting words in your mouth, or claiming to know your thoughts. Please argue in good faith.
But I already answered this question; I pointed out that the claimed actions included contacting the station in question, and of public episodes of panic. That there were many media reports of belief in this panic. Please, read my posts.
No offense, but it strikes me that i’m not offering any less than you as far as vagueness goes. Show me your commemorations. As far as mine go, i’ll again have to ask if I may cite Wikipedia, as you seem to have missed that question the first time around.
How extensive was the searching. Why, whenever I read this term, and I have read it many places, they fail to describe WHAT they mean by “extensive searching.” Dig they dig through half of the desert? Did they dig through 1/1,000,000th of the desert (they probably did even less than that, BTW)?
Am I wrong to ask for specific details, or am I required to cave into the authority of the experts?
Finally, Revenant’s War of the Worlds, how many people were believed to have visited the site of the aliens, or to make public displays of fright. I read through wikipedia, and it didn’t say that millions of people were believed to have made these public displays of fright.
Regarding 9/11’s behind-the-scene-foul-play myths, I don’t care how recent it is. It is stunningly dissimilar to the Sinai events. No one believes that millions of people saw the building being rigged. Therefore, it is completely irrelevant to sinai, to the question of whether nationally commemorated history can evolve over time.
As has been explained to you many time and you ignore. Evidence of two million people in a relatively small area would not require digs.
You have it backwards. You are requiring we cave into the beliefs of one particular people with no evidence other than their faith and a weak philosophical argument.
It doesn’t matter how many people the story says visited it.
A quote from the Wikipedia article.
“Richard J. Hand cites studies by unnamed historians who “calculate[d] that some six million heard the CBS broadcast; 1.7 million believed it to be true, and 1.2 million were ‘genuinely frightened’””
Everything is stunningly different to the Siana events. That is why the argument even though weak is hard to directly attack. Someone you believe because nothing else is close enough to it that it must be real, because nothing like it has been wrong.
The Sinai myth would not that be hard to come about. Somewhere back in their history someone tells a tale similar to how they escaped from slavery. The tale grew and grew as it was spread. After it was spread it continued to change. The numbers grew as did the miracles and also in time after it had been told for generations people came to believe that it had been passed down always.
It does quite clearly say that the amount of actual action as compared to believed action was minimal. It doesn’t say how many millions of people were believed to have made these public displays of fright - however, given your own set of basic assumptions, it would be incorrect to assume a lack of evidence as proof of the alternative hypothesis.
Not so; you’re simply comparing the wrong point. We have video evidence of the planes striking. Millions have certainly seen those videos. Truthers, who believe that the buildings were either rigged in some way or that there was a missile strike of some kind, believe that those millions who have seen those videos or other evidence are wrong. They very much believe that millions of people didn’t see the building being rigged - but they also very much believe that millions of people did see the building destroyed by rigged explosives, or a missile, or some other means that didn’t involve a couple of planes. You are wrong on that point.
Furthermore, I have to question the motives of someone who can so cavalierly proclaim that they “do not care” about some piece of evidence. That’s not the act, or words, of a person seeking a logical truth.
Revenant: I simply could not understand most of what you were saying.
You are comparing apples with oranges. Yes, truthers are pretty nuts. But they aren’t nuts enough to believe in an event which they believe was seen by an entire nation, which actually never happened.
They don’t believe that millions saw the rigged buildings. Most believe that planes did hit the building, except maybe the real extremeists who claim that the videos of the planes were fake videos. Regarding the sinia history, we have an actual event which was believed by a nation. That’s a false national, heavily commemorated event.
Indeed, if we would go back to 100 years after the sinai events, and they would say that, yes, they all believe that the entire nation saw extended miracles you WOULD believe them. You don’t believe because you hold that, over time, histoy can evolve. But it hasn’t happened yet.
Regarding the absence of evidence argument from archeology, it is simply a FALSE argument. Where is your skepticism? Diogenes, we don’t use photography from the air in order to find arifacts. We use it to find UNDERGROUND BUILDINGS.
There is no way they could expect to find desert artifacts from people who left Egypt without even food for themselves.
Yep, they are. More than a nation, in fact, given the ubiquity of media nowadays. I’m British, and i’ve seen video.
You’re responding to one point while missing out the others - that they believe that the buildings were brought down by other means - controlled demolition, or missile attacks. When you or I watch those videos, they exactly believe what we are watching is two buildings being destroyed by means other than those planes.
What? I thought your point was that the Sinai history was a true national, heavily commemorated event? It’s my contention that it’s false, as is the 9/11 truther movement.
Again, that’s circular reasoning - you can’t claim that history hasn’t evolved because we have this true case of it not doing so - and then that we know this event is true because history doesn’t evolve. You’re using your argument to prove itself.
I do not need to go back to 100 years after those events. I can sit here, 9-odd years after an event of massive scale, with global repercussion, and see that out in the world there are plenty of people who do not believe not only word-of-mouth, but substantial video and practical evidence. I don’t even need to go back a whole decade yet to discover an event which large numbers of people, confronted with vast amounts of evidence, simply have got wrong, and maintain their inaccuracies in spite of active attempts to get them to believe otherwise.
In comparison, the idea that a story passed on through an oral tradition has not changed,* cannot* change whatsoever, over thousands of years, is simply nonsensical.
This. If you don’t believe in God, do you really think that PRETENDING to believe in God is going to win you any brownie points with Him? Jesus calls out the Hypocrites constantly in the NT…
Revenant, I agree that the 9/11 truthers are pretty nuts. However, I don’t believe that the what they claimed happened behind the scenes is a national event. A national event is something which is witnessed by millions of people. You keep arguing how nutty these guys are. AND I AGREE. But you haven’t shown me that they believe in a false national event.
Second, my argument isn’t circular. YOURS IS. You are starting with the assumption that the event is surely false, that the evidence I am presenting is surely fallible. I can appreciate your approach. You are claiming that any evidence that points towards miracles is surely false. For you, even if you were at sinai witnessing the events you would say “apparently, my visual evidence is fallible.”
I don’t work that way. When I am presented with evidence for miracles, I look around in order to evaluate if this type of evidence is generally reliable. I have. I have shown many true national events. And you haven’t shown me a single false national event – except sinai.
But if that’s the way you work, then no evidence is good enough for you. Any evidence that I present, you say, “Well, apparently the evidence is fallible.”
I can’t prove it, but I could make a pretty respectable case that at least by 700BC, the entire Torah was written. This isn’t an absolute argument by any means.
According to II Kings 17 - and many scholars and archeologists agree that it was written in the First Temple era - there was a distinct Samaritan Jewish community that was populated by the (I think) Babylonian king. According to the book of Kings, they were taught the Torah from priests of Northerns Israel. THEY CONTINUED, however, TO SERVE THEIR OWN IDOLS.
In other words, we have two parallel “Jewish” communities, one Jewish and one Samaritan. They disagree regarding two very important facts – is the Temple in Jerusalem a holy piece of land or not, and regarding whether the Davidic monarchy is divinely entitled to the position.
To this very day, both communities have (almost) the exact same five books of Moses. It isn’t likely that these two groups would have acquired the Torah from each other, since they were enemies.
It seems LIKELY that both groups believed in the Torah all the way from the beginning.