Yes, Diogenes, thanks you for showing me that people can make mistakes. Yes, republicans and democrats can’t both be right about how we should run this country. So about half of us are wrong about our politics.
Show me, please, where people are wrong about their beliefs about a nationally-commemorated event.
Christmas.
Keep in mind what you’re really saying when you say Allah commands, or God commands, that what you’re really saying is some person says Allah or God commands.
Every time someone quotes the Bible or any thing called scripture as if it had divine authority, they tend to lose sight of the fact that it is after all only people declaring any writing to be God’s word, just as it is people who disagree on what is or isn’t God’s word, will, or command.
My question to my evangelical conservative Christian sister was "Since it is my eternal soul we’re speculating about the fate of, what person, which imperfect human, should I go to to tell me exactly what I should do?
A Rabbi, A priest, a Preacher, a Mullah, a mystic, which person should I depend on for the well being of my eternal soul?
But you did go on to say what Allah commands. Have you been to Mecca or do you plan on going? If the answer to both of those questions is ‘no’, why aren’t you hedging your bet by doing so?
Was Jesus resurrection a national event? In other words, do millions of people believe that millions of their ancestors saw Jesus alive?
Second, I would rather not focus on Christianity too much, since I do not want to offend Christianity or Christians. I admire Christianity too much to be takeing shots at such a wonderful religion.
Indeed, Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik – the Dean of Y.U. and one of the greatest Talmudic sages of the last generation – was approached by his Christian doctor, who exclaimed that he no longer believes in Christianity and he therefore does not want to go to church anymore. The Rabbi begged him, tearfully, that he should not forsake his ancestors’ religion – Christianity (and the doctors accepted the advice).
Still, Jesus’ resurrection is not a national event.
One is forbidden to add commandments to the Torah. Therefore, it would be illegal for me to visit mecca for the sake of performing a commandment.
You said:
“X-ray: Allah commands that we believe in him. He also commands that we visit meccah. He predicts that if we ignore his commands we will burn, for each violation. Should we not at least visit mecca?”
Well? Shouldn’t we? Visiting Mecca is not adding commandments to the Torah and if God wants everyone to follow the Qur’an and the Qur’an depicts a terrible Hell, wouldn’t it be wise for someone who buys into Pascal’s Wager to make a pilgrimage to Mecca?
If you’re going to maintain your assertion that making the pilgrimage is adding commandments to the Torah, can you show me what the Torah says on this matter and what the punishment is?
Billions of people believe that hundreds did. The number of claimed witnesses internal to the myth is of no consequence. Bigger numbers doesn’t make them more likely to be true.
Who’s taking shots at it? You asked for another example of a “nationally commemerated” belief in a magical event. You got one.
Neither is Sinai. It’s just an unsupported religious belief in a magical historical event, but the Christian miracles are believed in and commemorated (sometimes on a “national” level) by billions of people. We have a primary claim by Paul that 500 people saw Jesus alive at one time (this is not counting the apostles, Mary Magdalene and Paul himself). That is better documentary evidence that anything we have for Sinai.
It doesn’t make a difference how dreadfully the Torah will punish me for listening to Muhamed. Even if the Torah would say “Don’t add to My commandments, but if you do I won’t punish you” – would I listen to Muhamed?
No! Now read carefully: It is morally wrong to disobey God.
It’s like asking, “Would you steal a lottery ticket if no one was looking?” Better yet, “Would you steal Bill Gates’ money if you knew you would get away with it?”
Of course not! Because not matter how great the reward, I find it to be morally wrong to disobey God’s command of not adding to the Torah, which, as interpreted by the Rabbis, includes doing something as mundane as shaking two palm branches (instead of one, as ordained by the Torah).
One is forbidden from performing an act to God which was not ordained or commanded by the Torah; at least that’s the way the Rabbis understood this prohibition mentioned in Deuteronomy 4:2.
Diogenes: The fact that billions of people believe that hundreds saw Jesus alive is of no importance. Billions (or close to it) believe that Muhamed saw the angel Gabriel.
I am not saying that 500 people is nothing. But it is nothing close to millions – I think you can agree to that.
The Talmud, we should not forget, reports of MANY Rabbis performing miracles and resurrections in front of entire towns of people. So 500 people is quite common and is found in many religions.
But nothing like a nation believing that the entire nations ancestry - millions of people - saw extended miracles.
Isn’t it ironic that Jews were most enthusiastic about rejecting the Christian miracles, while all the other nations gobbled it up quickly? Do you know why?
I suspect that it is because anyone is willing to believe faraway miracles. Spaniards can accept that miracles took place 1000 miles away. But the Jews rejected it because they reasoned “you claim that hundreds of our ancestors saw Jesus perform miracles, and yet we never heard of it.”
So your claim of the Christian miracles would be more relevant if the Jewish nation accepted Christianity. How were the Spaniards supposed to know if Paul was lying about the 500 witnesses?
Got to go to bed; see you thursday.
If you disobey al Qur’an, you might be disobeying God.
I am telling you that the number of witnesses in a fictional story, does not make the story any more likely to be true.
The Talmud is not evidence either. All religions have miracle stories. You can’t cite religious belief as evidence of itself.
Sure I know why. Because Jesus didn’t meet the Jewish criteria for the Messiah. It contradicted pre-existing (but no more rationally supported) religious beliefs. So what?
How were people living 500-800 years after the alleged Exodus supposed to know if THAT story was false?
You are the one defending Pascal’s Wager, yet you think doing what is morally right is more important than improving your odds of getting eternal reward or not getting eternal punishment? I’m pretty sure some atheists in this thread mentioned not compromising their principles for reward or fear of punishment and you weren’t impressed. Something you said earlier:
“You sound very brave and full of bravado. But you aren’t being realistic. To give up an infinite afterlife simply because you think that God is not fair, is silly. Where else are you so brave? Did you fight in the military? Are you a cop, or a fireman? No, because you are a pussy-cat. And I don’t blame you for being a pussy-cat. But be honest with yourself.”
You sound pretty brave yourself willing to risk Hellfire because of what you think is an immoral act. Don’t you see that atheists not wanting to compromise their principles for reward is on par with you not wanting to compromise your morals for the same?
Many important points have been made by X-ray and diogenes. I will respond more thoroughly tomorrow.
They could have easily known that the story was false. A prophet comes and says “millions of your ancestors would commanded to observe an everlasting sabbath by God.” They would have immediately asked, “If you, dear [UNKNOWN and ANONYMOUS] prophet, are right, then why haven’t we heard about it from our ancestors.”
I am not claiming that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a charismatic prophet to successfully rebut their response. I am merely claiming that it has never happened, and the burden is on you to show me that it is possible. There are many true nationally-experienced, nationally commemorated events, and there isn’t even one wrong one. Not one. I don’t care if I can’t prove exactly when that belief formed: it is a belief and a form of evidence which has never been shown to be fallible.
This is a short (and incomplete) sample of the commemorations of the Exodus. As I’ve said many times before, commemorations mean nothing. Rather, what excites me is the fact that the commemorations were believed to have been initiated at the time of the miracles:
One must refrain from work on the first day of Passover (Leviticus 23:7);
And refrain from work on the seventh day of Passover (23:8);
One must slaughter a Passover Lamb (Exodus 12:6);
One must eat a part of the Passover lamb (12:8);
One must roast, but not boil, the lamb’s flesh (12:9);
One must not serve the meat to non-Jews, whether they are pagans (12:43) or monotheists (12:45);
One may not serve the meat to a Jew who is uncircumcised (12:48);
One must eat the meat as part of a large group (12:46);
One mustn’t break a bone of the carcass (12:46);
A prophet didn’t say it. Kings did. Starting (most likely) with Josiah miraculously “finding” a “book of the Law” written by Moses, which was then expanded (probably from multiple preexisting tribal legends) and syncretized by subsequent courts into the Torah. These stories were imposed as a unified “history,” which, guess what, was apparently not particularly well accepted for a while, since polytheistic practices continued to be popular until at least the post-exilic period.
You also seem to have the impression that the people had either te ability to know what was history and what wasn’t (though some parts of the Exodus myth and associated rituals had prior, Canaanite, tribal roots)
This is not the claim, but history is full of “prophets” who have convinced great masses of people to believe all kinds of fantastic history. Look at Joseph Smith or L. Ron Hubbard.
There are many. actually. Pretty much all nationally recognized religious events of any kind would qualify.
A belief is not a form of evidence, and this particular historical belief has, indeed, been demonstrated to be ahistorical.
Belief is meaningless.
Since we don’t know which God or gods actually exist, or how they want us to live our lives, it’s better not to put all your eggs in one metaphysical basket. Live a decent life, one that you can feel proud of. The gods will certainly be merciful enough to overlook the minor details. If the deities are too petty to forgive a good man for eating the wrong kind of fish, we already live in Hell. But I would think it an insult to them to even consider this.
Then, even if it turns out that Poseidon has been the one true god all along and that we must never touch the holy trout, I think we’ll be alright.
Yahweh says he’s really jealous, though. I think he reads everybody’s emails and gets all weird if he finds out somebody’s been talking to a Scientologist.
Sure, in that ridiculous scenario, the people would object. But what about a realistic scenario?
People sitting around the campfire tell stories they’ve heard about the exploits of some of their more remarkable recent ancestors. The more memorable of these stories get retold, and over the generations become more and more embellished. Then they become even more memorable and continue to expand in scope. Over a few generations, you get a simple story of a man and his family escaping servitude in the next town over, morphing into a story of a great leader forcing the emperor of the greatest nation they knew about to set him (and a couple million others) free to travel great distances.
And the story would have continued to morph, but writing was invented and set that particular version in stone.
A lot of exremely important points have been made, and I will hope to get to at least some of them. I am sorry that I will simply not have the time to get to most, though.
CurtC, you assume and claim that it is normal for nationally-commemorated, national-history to evolve time. I assume that you haven’t heard this from an angel. Rather, you have come to this through an empirical study of how myths form. If so, I think it is legitimate for me to ask: Show me one other false, nationally-experienced, nationally-commemorated history.
As I have said before, can you please show me how L. Ron Hubbard convinced people to believe a false nationally-experienced, nationally-commemorated history? Give me 100,000 people. I won’t even ask for 2.5 million.
Regarding “Joshia’s Torah,” I am surprised that you only take part of the evidence mentioned in the Bible. Is that called being objective?
Modern scholars all agree (or the few secular ones that I have read) that the Book of Kings was written during the first temple era. They base this on numerous proofs, mostly from the fact that even the most minute details about the locations of first temple towns are found to be accurate from an archeological standpoint.
The Book of Kings states that Josiah found a Torah scroll. Doesn’t that imply that the Jews never had a Torah before? There are a few responses to this claim:
Even if the Jews never had a Torah before, it does not imply that the sinai history is false, or that it only became known at that point. It merely implies (AT MOST!) that the Torah was written in King Josiah’s time. The Kuzari proof does not depend on when the Torah was written. Your point is relevant to biblical criticism, not to Kuzari.
The same book of kings – the same damn book that you are relying on – says that the Jews had a written “Torah of Moses” in the time of David (I Kings 1:4); and in the time of King Joshafat (II Kings 14:6). UNLESS SOMEONE IS AS BIASED AS DIOGENES, he would have to admit that the evidence goes in both directions. So how do we explain this? The oral tradition explains that the wicked King Menashe, burned many Torah scrolls located in Jerusalem a few DECADES before Josiah’s Torah was found. Therefore, those who found the Torah were surprised that they found a Torah in Jerusalem hidden away. Why was that Torah hidden away? Why were people willing to risk their lives to hide a Torah under the nose of the tyranicall King Menashe? Because the Torah that was hidden and subsequently found wasn’t an ordinary Book of the Torah. Rather, it was the same Torah that was written by Moses’ “hand” (as implied by II Chronicles 34:14).
Finally, the Samaritans split from Judaism WAY BEFORE King Josiah (II Kings 17). They also have a Torah – which is almost identical to the Jewish Torah. Therefore, the Torah could not have been written at King Josiah’s time.