The Governing Forces don’t punish anybody. They love Their creation so much, they want all people to attain Maximum Bliss. Unfortunately, some people choose not to accept the gift of eternal Maximum Bliss, by choosing not to walk around naked. It’s not the Governing Forces’ fault that these people will be sent to the Pits of Doom! It was their own decision!
Bear in mind (or bare in mind) that walking around in the buff is not enough to qualify one for Maximum Bliss. You must do so for the right reason. To wit, you must accept the Governing Forces’ offer of forgiveness for your past sin of covering your nudity. Being merciful, they will forgive anyone who accepts this bargain. Being wrathful, they will allow those who refuse (including naked unbelievers) to fall into the Pits of Doom.
Given that the payoff is so much greater than anything you can imagine, and the price high for not believing, the safe bet would be to swallow my story.
oops, I see that my message was not in the last posting.
What I was going to say was that Jefferson was encouraging a more intelligent faith, not one based merely on whims. Though government was not to enforce religion, it was still an important detail of American life. Jefferson was big on education and worked on the design of what is now the University of Virginia. In that design, he placed the library at the center of the campus, emphasising the importance of knowledge. Faith can run independant of reason - it is a belief in the unseen - but TJ would probably want us to know as much as we can and to think logically before placing faith in something.
TJ does not encourage dropping our faith just because we cannot prove it, he is just suggesting that we take a more serious, informed look at it.
I can’t believe we’ve gotten this far in the debate (at least this round; I haven’t checked the other linked threads) without actually discussing the odds behind Pascal’s Wager. We have to look at the combinations of conditions and the outcomes related, like so:
Belief + Existence : Heaven after Death
Belief + Nonexistence : Nothing after Death
Nonbelief + Nonexistence : Nothing after Death
Nonbelief + Existence : You go to Hell! You go to Hell and you die!
(Sorry, I couldn’t help myself.)
In short, there is only a 1 in 4 chance of your actually getting in to heaven under the conditions of Pascal’s Wager. There is a 1 in 2 chance of absolutely nothing happening to you after you die except the physical aspects. So that leaves us with only one choice: whether or not to base our actions in life on a belief in god or not. And since the outcome is essentially the same, you then have to look at the practical effects of a belief in god on your actions towards other human beings. Me, I chose atheism for a number of reasons.
Oley, If only it were as simple as drawing out a punnet square. Let’s go back to the TJ quote. If god exists (condition 1) he holds reason above fear in decision making matters.
let’s draw another punnet square with two variables.
Given : god exists
var 1 belief: belief/non-belief
var2 method: reason/blind fear
first column
Belief - due to reason
Belief - due to blind fear
As TJ states, God would “respect” the ‘belief due to reason’ person over the ‘belief due to blind fear’ individual.
Therefore, it stands to reason that god would also “favor” the ‘non-belief due to reason’ over the ‘non-belief due to fear’ (or the other cell).
Now the other column.
So, one can consider that if you have looked at all the “facts” and decide not to believe, you would be viewed more kindly if you are wrong. Adds a bit more conditionality to you groupings.
Basically, according to the clarified odds, as an atheist, you have a 0% chance of going to Heaven, and it’s 50/50 of either nothingness or Hell. With belief in God, there is 0% chance of hell, and 50/50 of nothingness or Heaven.
These figures are all presuming that each outcome has an equal chance of occurance. Even so, it seems to me that you have better results in the end by believing in God, proving Pascal’s point.
I think I’ll keep my bets on God, the odds are in my favor.
Sam Shade, if you were a woman, I’d kiss you. (maybe you are…I don’t know people here that well yet)
Anyway, I’ve looked at this wager before and it does not help. On its face, it seems to make sense to believe. However, I cannot make myself believe. I could do everything that is expected of a Christian, and no one would question me. But what would that make me? At best, I’d be a shallow man doing it only for acceptance and a possible ticket to heaven that I don’t really believe in. At worst, I’d be a hypocrite and sent to Hell anyway.
I find it best to be true to my feelings and beliefs. I try to live what Christians would call a “good Christian lifestyle” but I believe in fairness. Life maybe unfair, but that doesn’t mean I have to be. In fact, I live my life by something Jesus once said, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
My biggest problem is what to do with my kids? I would like to bring them up as Christians so they get the initial beliefs. But if they start asking me questions, what do I say? Do I betray myself and tell them what the Bible says or do I tell them my own true beliefs? Anyway, I have a couple of years before I have to worry about that.
No kidding, which is one of the flaws in the argument. You might have noticed that Christianity isn’t the only religion to posit the existence of a god. To ignore the many other religions with no basis for doing so other than “because I think they are false” isn’t really making the argument any stronger.
Hey three grumpy!
What about primitive aboriginal peoples in tropical climates who have never had a need for clothes? Are they damned to the PoD™?
I submit we need to send missionaries to such peoples armed with “Cubs Playoffs - 2001” t-shirts that were printied up over the summer but now will go unused. This will allow such peoples to clothe themselves, and then disrobe, thereby attaining maximum bliss.
Dinsdale, I’ll let St. Paul do my talking for me. You see, he already addressed this quandry in his role as Prophet for the Governing Forces. (Don’t let all his talk about Christ confuse you into thinking he was a Christian spokesman.)
Romans 2:13-14 "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.)