Believe me Andros, it wasn’t your post that caught my eye, and I completely agree with you. We should value everyones opinion. I just find it humourous about those people who complain about “Hollywood Liberals” etc. and dismissing their opinions as rubbish simply because they are actors or musicians.
I’m sure plenty of people on here would be just as happy to comment on the state of the world if a microphone was put in from of them.
Damn skrait.
Well, actually I’m holding out until I’m elected Grand Poobah of the World, but ya know, paperwork.
First off, blame the fucktards shoving glowsticks up prisoner’s asses, they’re the ones pouring gasoline on the fire. As far as the pictures getting out? Well, as already mentioned, it was just “frat style” hazing up until that point. The photos caught these asshole red handed, and if anything happens in the future, I want more photos released. They seem to be one of the few things keeping these idiots in line, because it forces the Bush admin into action. If people want to minimize the amount of additional danger to our troops, perhaps they should take steps to ensure no more torturing happens, instead of bitching about word of it getting out. :rolleyes:
Blame the “soldiers” who did the torturing. Every death that comes from the response to the torture is directly on the heads of everyone involved with the torture – up to and including anyone in the White House who was aware. The whole lot of them should be tried for war crimes.
The American public has a right to know that these soldiers were defiling our army’s uniform with their actions. We have a right to know that these ignorant grunts, and the evil people commanding them, had metaphorically wiped their ass with the American flag and called it “patriotism.” The soldiers involved are the evil ones, particularly those giving the orders. The press are heros for bringing this tragedy to the light of day.
Without the photos, people would have believed the denials of the Pentagon. It all would have been hushed up. Is that what you would prefer? That this terrible evil performed by people representing OUR COUNTRY be brushed under the rug?
The job of the media is to root out the truth, because the truth is an inherent good in and of itself. The media did that here. Sometimes the truth has bad consequences, but even then, we’re all better off for knowing it.
I must be dead on point. I’m pissing all the right people off.
Diogenes, as always, you muddy the waters quite well. Yes, I supported the war. I thought it was an unfortunate necessity. No, this doesn’t mean I don’t give a shit about the troops.
In fact, I care about them quite a lot. So much so that I actually care that disturbing scenes shown on American TV might be putting them in more danger than necessary.
For all the Dopers who claim to care about the troops, military threads only seem to be popular when they’re accompanied by Bush-bashing. A couple of days ago I pitted the Navy for allowing an unsafe steam leak to scald a 20 year old sailor to death. As of right now, only 412 views have been made of the thread, and only five replies.
I guess the death of a sailor doesn’t matter, if it doesn’t help get Kerry elected.
What it boils down to is two sets of disgusting pictures. Why are we shown one set and not the other?
Because someone made a decision that we should see the one set and not the other, that’s why. Said decision has political implications. It has political consequences as well.
Well, we’re at war with a people with an inferiority complex. Some radical members of this group address this via acts of breathtaking terrorism. We have troops right in the middle of this region.
The bad consequences you speak of basically amounts to actively humiliating these folks and gunning up the engine for revenge. I’m sorry if I can’t agree that we’re better off for doing this.
You can’t grasp the simple fact that it’s the TROOPS THEMSELVES that are enabling this additional danger. If I’m a soldier I stop and think and go “well, if stick this flashlight up abdullah’s ass, I’ll be putting EVERY SINGLE COALITION SOLDIER in even more risk, so why the hell would I do it?”
It’s very, very simple, there are two ways in which could “remove” the additional risk to our people. Don’t torture people, or don’t let reports of torture out to inflame the masses. I’ll go with the first one, because it has the added benefit of people not being beaten and sodomized.
I haven’t heard anything about it, I’ll check that out.
C’mon now, this is just a stupid thing to say.
Because no one needs to see a picture of an abortion to prove they happen every day, that’s already widely accepted.
Like I said which is move effective, not committing acts, or not reporting them?
I propose we pretend, for the moment, that you never actually posted such utterly mawkish and self-serving spew. Cut you a break. That way, if you want to come back and apologize for delivering such a steaming load in polite company, we can pretend it never happened. Its more than you deserve, but we are a generous lot.
WTF did you THINK would otherwise happen? We already “actively humiliated” these people. Did you think that if Dan Rather hadn’t told them, they wouldn’t have found out? That they didn’t already know? You can bet your Ronnie Reagan Space Cowboy Decoder Ring they fucking knew! The ones being kept in the dark were us! This shit had been going on for months!
Months!
And please note the sudden release of hundreds of “suspects” from custody. Now, what do you suppose? That hundreds of seething terrorists were set free in order to further John Kerry’s campaign? Or that they weren’t guilty of anything in the first place!
Oh, go fuck yourself. I’m through with you. I hope the next time a couple of our soldiers rape, beat and sodomize someone, it’s you.
Yeah, like a dull pencil.
You still haven’t explained how.
** (Emphasis mine)
What a steaming load of unsupportable horseshit. The photos from Abu Ghraib weren’t published to make Kerry look good; they were suppressed for months to keep the Bush administration from looking bad. They were on hold so the Bushies could plan suitable damage control. And thanks to the Senate Judiciary Committee, specifically Senator Durbin, that may even be useless.
The reason they were published now is because they were leaking out anyway. CBS showed some journalistic integrity and showed the photos out in the open. You didn’t want to see them? Then don’t. The fact of the matter is that the American people need to know what is going on in Iraq. This means that we should see them and demand full accountability from those involved, even if it costs Bush the election.
Sure it does. It means that Bush might lose the election.
Be that as it may, how does keeping the American public in the dark about the horrible torture at Abu Ghraib and other prisons help the soldier in the field?
Look. I understand the desire not to put troops in harm’s way more than is necessary. However, American soldiers wearing American uniforms tortured what could have been innocent Iraqis, took pictures to document their deeds, and the individuals now involved are being held to account publicly for their crimes. Publicly, as it should be. And now that the scandal and these pictures, in all their raging, ugly Technicolor glory, are out there in legitimate news publications, for all to see. Again, as it should be.
If you choose to keep your head up your ass and pretend this brutality hasn’t been committed in your name, that’s your choice, and I can accept that. Just don’t make bullshit arguments supporting that choice.
Robin
No, no, no. We should listen to Pat Boone because famous people are better and smarter than the rest of us…
If Pat Boone were a stopped clock, he would contrive to NOT be right even once a day, never mind twice.
Pat Boone is so wrong that he would float upstream if thrown into a river.
Pat Boone has never been right, that I am aware of.
I heard Pat Boone sing “Hearts of Stone” back in the 50s and I’ve hated him ever since.
Why was it a necessity? What was the urgency? EWhat would have happened if we hadn’t invaded Iraq? What good has come of it?
No, you just have a very casual attitude about what cause is worth spending their lives on
1.) Prove that showing those pictures puts them in any more danger than your President already has
2.) Sending troops into an illegal war for no fucking reason is already putting them in more danger than is necessary.
I read that thread. Frankly it hasn’t got much response becaues it’s a boring story, not for any political reason. A guy was killed in an accident. It’s unfortunate but it happens every day. So fucking what? You ripped the Navy for negligence. Bully for you. Now what the fuck does that have to do with anything going on in Iraq? That accident killed one person not eight or nine hundred or whatever the hell the number is now- and that’s not counting the thousands of Iraqis that have been killed- and it was not the result of a deliberate and reckless act of personal egoism like Bush’s invasion of Iraq was. Is it really so shocking that a war (and war crimes) will provoke more response than one accidental death by scalding?
You’re not really that small are you? I’m going to assume you wrote that in a fit of pique and that you’re sorry.
Television is all about money and there is a fundamental difference is the level of shock and disgust that is produced by showing the AG photos and the Berg video. The AG ohotos are just shocking enough in TV term to generate ratings without turning the audience’s stomachs. A video of a man getting his head sawed off is just too much. It turns people off. I doesn’t seel the soap. If it was a little more PG 13 maybe they’d show it. You saw the body hanging from the bridge didn’t you? It’s all about the line between being entertaining and provactive without just flat out showing a snuff clip.
You won’t see those Iraqis with glowsticks up their asses either btw.
And who would that “someone” be? Could it be…
Satan?
Loosen up the tinfoil, dude.
Cite?
The speedometer is already buried on that “revenge engine.” They already knew.
It’s us that needed to see those pictures.
Out of bounds, spectrum. Wishing violence on another poster isn’t permissible, even in the Pit. Don’t do it again, no matter how frustrated you are.
TVeblen
Well well well, where to start.
First of all, you’ll get no argument from me that this whole thing started with soldiers acting abominably. Likewise that they put their fellow soldiers at risk. I therefore believe that the full weight of military justice should be brought down upon them (while respecting their rights, of course), and the trials be televised to the Iraqi people.
Incidents like this, when they happen in a war, should be dealt with justly and openly. Nowhere have I argued for a coverup. I do think, however, that showing the images to yet more people will gain us more ill will, and more military and civilian deaths in the region. If we’re not careful, we might get some of that sent back to us in the form of domestic terrorism. Bruce Hoffman reports in the lates Atlantic Monthly that the Islamist and Baathist divide doesn’t really exist anymore in fighting on the ground.
As for my thread about Seaman Apprentice Schultz, the poor guy who got cooked to death by a steam leak, what can I say? Diogenes the Cynic found his story boring. I find this quite a shame, especially since Diogenes is a Navy veteran himself.
It’s an issue to me, and to a lot of people I know, that the Navy would be so negligent as to cause a 20-year old sailor to die in boiling water. But Diogenes only cares about military members when they’re dying in Iraq. And my thread died on the vine, like a lot of military related threads. I’m sorry if I found this frustrating.
Shame on you, sir. Shame.
Shame on me? Shame on Diogenes. As a veteran himself, he should have showed a little more compassion for a scalded sailor, than calling his story boring.
The poor kid died two days later in pain, with his family at his side. Is that boring enough for you?
Shame indeed.
Well, for one thing, it isn’t at all clear that anyone would be being truly held accountable if not for the pictures. As for domestic terrorism, do you mean Tim McVeigh types? Or do you mean foreign terrorists acting on US soil. It seems to me we had both even before CBS showed any pictures. Predicting that which is already likely is not a very compelling argument.
Further, as a serviceman, you don’t seem concerned to make sure that the buck falls where it should. Do you think the higher-ups responsible for the torture would be remotely close to being held accountable without the attention the pictures brought?
As one who did respond to your thread, I have two thoughts on this. First, clearly you don’t care about women in the prime of their life being killed by cars, since you didn’t respond at all to my post on the matter. Yawn. What a bore for you.
Second, what would you have them say? 20,000 posts saying “Damn, that’s a tough break?” See, the thing is, Schultz apparently died as a result of an accident. Military personnel in Iraq were sent there on purpose, knowing, calculating, even that some would be killed. People can curse fate, or lack of foresight, or whatever, but that will not make it likely that tragic accidents will be prevented in the future. However, it is very possible for us to prevent the mistake of allowing W to make decisions about life and death in the future.
With respect, and with sensitivity to what is clearly a significant topic for you, you appear to be whining in a most unappealing way about the lack of reflected attention that Schultz’ death brought to you.
Come on, Moto. You may have been frustrated but do you really have to twist my words like that?
I said it was unfortunate, but I thought that there was very little to discuss about it. As a thread it was boring. Please don’t take it personally, there is no supercillious intent in my pronouncement. All of us frequent posters have started the occasional thread that simply fails to inspire a discussion. I am no exception. There is nothing quite like watching a carefully crafted OP sink lower and lower on a page with zero responses and three or four peeks.
I’m sorry about that sailor. I agree that the military is often maddeningly inert when it comes to implementing or updating basic safety precautions. I just didn’t see that I had anything to add to the thread rather than “yeah, that sucks.” Don’t take it the wrong way. I had nothing particularly intelligent to add. Doesn’t mean I didn’t feel bad for that sailor.
And I still tend to get more upset about actions which kill people by the hundreds or thousands than by one tragedy caused by typical Navy negligence.
Maybe it didn’t start out boring, but you have managed to make it maudlin and self serving. However disinterested I may be, neither am I exploiting it to undermine an opponent, or impugn his motives.
I called shame, and I stand by that call. You suck, dude.
I saw the Cramps in Hollywood, and they played this record in it’s entirety over house system between bands.
It is a really cool record!!!
Nobody cares since this thread has run out of steam, and nobody care would anyway, but here’s what I think.
They HAD to show the photo’s, else nobody would believe it. Well, most folks anyhoo. That, or they would have trivialized it as has been said before. A lot of folks are still trying to do that. Hell, I would have done that, and I’m a democrat. The Berg video? We all believed that was possible. No need to show, you know what I mean?
Claims of extrordinary events require convincing evidence. And sad to say, I found this extrordinary. It’s an important story and something we* need * to know about.
As for the claim that showing the photos puts soldiers at risk, I call bullshit. Christ, if any potential combatants didn’t hate us before, this ain’t gonna change their minds. And I have to agree with the others who have said that the Iraqi’s knew about this shit a long time before we did.