http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/23/1048354477262.html
How does something like this happen? The plane wasn’t flying near the speed of a missle I’m sure. They don’t use transponders?
Early days yet - the truth will out eventually.
I just hope this isnt the start of a series of friendly fire incidents which cost Britain half her ground casualties in the last Gulf War.
We have also lost an ITN news crew, allegedly to friendly fire.
NOT GOOD.
If I had been living in a gutter (or somewhere without news) and then came back and read the news RAF Tornado downed by US missile I’d think “WTF! Is Britain at war with America?!”
But I haven’t, so I don’t.
And, It is looking that way ChalkPit. there are 6 times as many Americans as Brits. yet there are more than twice as many british deaths (last time I checked) None of those from battle!
Meant “saw the title” not “read the news”
Inevitable really. I bet hundreds of planes were shot down by there own side in WW2 and thousands if not tens of thousands killed by there own artillery. Friendly fire has been killing people since the dawn of warfare and always will.You add together lethal weapons and humanitys capacity for error and it’s going to happen no matter what precautions you take.
Yes Deptford It is of course inevitable. But have there ever been any wars other than Gulf wars where Friendly fire is responsible for the majority of total deaths on one side?
Weren’t most of them from the Brits colliding two helicopters?
Are there more than 16 UK deaths? If not, then yes treis
8 died in the collision.
Who were the pilots?
Who’s job is it to co-ordinate landings and take offs?
To address the OP…
They don’t know yet.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2878565.stm
**
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/2868569.stm
So it’s possible it was either a mechanical malfunction or a software bug, God help us.
I was an Air Defense Missile Officer in combat. These procedures were in place ten years ago, and I have no reason to believe they have changed.
Returning Allied aircraft have specific procedures to follow (RTF, or Return to Force, Procedures) which include squawking the IFF transponder, flying between certain altitudes and in certain “corridors”, and between certain speeds. In cases where that is not possible, they are to follow certain manuvers that show they are not a threat.
Pilots do not like to squawk IFF because it paints a big friggin return when challenged by EITHER side, but they are SUPPOSED to turn it back on when coming home.
Likewise, the missile battery has certain rules of engagement IT follows.
In WEAPONS HOLD - they do not fire except in self defense.
In WEAPONS TIGHT - they fire on targets positively identified as hostile.
In WEAPONS FREE - they fire on targets NOT positively identified as friendly.
Unless the Patriot Battery screwed up BIG time, I would lay odds the RTF procedures were not being followed by the aircraft. That is not to say the pilot screwed up, the missile battery certainly could have screwed up.
I spent my year as a conscript with a MSAM battery in the Royal Norwegian airforce. There are many ways this could happen even though much of the training is to make sure it doesn’t. We never killed a friendly in sims.
AAA recognises friendly a/c in two ways.
-
Transponder code or IFF(identefy friend or foe)
These codes change often and a/c will often switch the IFF off when going into enemy airspace. If the pilot or someone on the ground use the wrong codes or the pilot forgot to switch on his IFF the plane could have been identified as an enemy. However, I find this unlikely. -
By having roads in friendly airspace where a friendly a/c flies at an predetermined speed and altitude.
These also change often( location, speed and altitude). IIRC this is the prefered way to ID a a/c and if you have the right IFF but fly wrong you will be shot down. A damaged a/c or a careless pilot could fly wrong but I doubt if a pilot would risk his life like that and a damaged a/c should get special treatment(the air controller giving them a do not shoot zone).
If they were realy unlucky they could could come on the radar screen just after a missile and the operator might fire thinking they were a missile. I don’t know if Patriot missiles can be stopped when they are tracking a target. I know we couldn’t on NASAMS and that they could on HAWK. An unlikely scenario is that 2 Patriots were fired at an incomming missile, one destroys the missile and the other goes hunting for another target, I know AMRAAM could do this.
My best guess is that the pilot didn’t fly correctly in one of the lanes or flied into a free fire zone. Or that the operators on the ground lost it.
This is what I heard on one of the 24 hour TV news channels.
The Tornado was shot down shortly after the incident when the US soldier threw grenades into his comrades tents. Immediately after the grenade attack, it wasn’t clear where the attack came from. US forces assumed they where under attack from emeny forces outside their compound and adopted an “aggressive defence” posture.
I’m guessing that the Patriot Missile operator over-road his systems fail safes and - perhaps in panic - over reacted and fired at the first target he saw.
hmm - without being able to quote chapter and vers, legion I am pretty clear in myself that news reports were reporting that the grenade thrower was a U.S. person, before this Patriot/Tornado incident.
Q: How do you get 30 Brits into a telephone box?
A: Tell them it’s safer than a Tornado
Legion, this is exactly how I saw it reported on Sky News - it showed the troops getting into battle stations following the ‘incident’, then shortly afterwards launching the Patriot.
It’s possible that there was a failure of the IFF equipment - no response is generally regarded automatically as hostile.
Gee, your a real funny guy.
It’s not even as if the “Joke” makes any sense
I see it differently. No response identifies it as a Bogey (Unknown) rather than Bandit (Hostile).
Of course I am hearing reports that the Patriot was on “automatic”, and since SCUDs do not carry transponders, it leads me to believe they were under weapons control states that allowed firing on Unknowns.
My mistake, you’re correct - but depending, IIRC, on the situation, a bogey can be treated the same as a bandit (ie if it’s on an attack vector).