Pay Teachers More

[Superhal]

@John_Mace

Thinking about this more, I wonder how we would be able to get the top 1/3 of college grads into teaching. Kristoff maintains that teachers in his prized countries are paid similarly to engineers and lawyers. Well, maybe there is just more demand for engineers and lawyers in the US. We’d have to re-order our entire society to change that.

Chicken and egg dilemma here? The poor teachers are causing the engineer/lawyer shortage, thus boosting salaries in the latter and depressing talent in the former?

@John_Mace

Or, if you look at countries like Korea, my guess is that they have a similar situation to the US in the 60s-- no real opportunities for women except in teaching, nursing and administrative work. How many female lawyers and engineers are there in Korea? I’ve been to Korea on business in the engineer field, and I can’t remember seeing even one in the meetings we had. The only women I saw were the ones bringing tea into the rooms.

In Korea (and from what I can gather, Japan as well) women aren’t a major part of the workforce. They continue to be housewives and/or elementary school teachers/nurses/secretaries while single. Women having a career (vs a part time job) is still rare. Male teachers from middle school through college are the majority.

@Snifit

Would that I had gotten my B.Ed. a few years earlier.
I’m looking to teach high school math, and my city-wide school board wouldn’t even hire me on to the substitute list.

Do you have all the qualifications? In my state, I (MA, BA, 10+ years of experience) was allowed to be on the substitute teacher’s list, but not a regular teacher. I had to have a teaching certificate.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@pkbites

Would paying cops more result in less crime???

No. :rolleyes: Of course not.

Err…why not? Within certain ranges, of course not (a raise from $1,000 annually to 1,001 annually won’t have an effect, nor will a raise from $1,000,000 to $1,100,000 annually). But if current wages for cops are insufficient to recruit the talent you need for your department, then of course a raise will enable you to recruit better cops, and better cops presumably reduce crime.

[MsRobyn]

@Snifit

Would that I had gotten my B.Ed. a few years earlier.
I’m looking to teach high school math, and my city-wide school board wouldn’t even hire me on to the substitute list.

This is another kettle of fish entirely. The requirement to have a teaching certificate is keeping some very experienced people out of teaching. I know people, both military and civilian, who want to go into teaching once they retire. Unfortunately, they’re looking at more education and more cost for something that may not be worth it in the long run, because many districts (at least in my state) refuse to hire teachers from alternative-certification programs.

[MandaJo]

@TriPolar

My point is more specific. It’s not a about a lack of certified teachers (we have extras here in the northeast), but a lack in certain regions of the country. And a lack of desire by teachers to go to those regions. I can think of several reasons why teachers don’t want to go to some regions. I don’t think any rational, intelligent person wants to go to some of these regions. In other cases, the pay may be too low. I know of one case where a teacher is not willing to leave a very small area no matter what. I’m just trying to put together the pieces of this problem, and looking for information that would help.

You’re completely right, and according to the links I posted earlier, it doesn’t look like there is a lack of people with teaching certificates anywhere–the shortages are a result of people leaving the profession at a tremendous rate, especially in the first five years.

But it’s not that no “rational, intelligent person wants to go to some of those regions” under any circumstances, it’s that no “rational intelligent person” is willing to go for the wages offered. If the inner-city schools paid 100,000/year, there would be plenty of applicants to chose from. If schools in the hinterlands paid $70,000 a year, people would move to the hinterlands to teach. No position is inherently unfillable: its all relative to wages.

[Frylock]

@erez

Your anecdotal evidence is meaningless. This subject has been studied and the results are well known. Even during weeks when teachers do work, they don’t work more. “Teachers employed full time worked 24 fewer minutes per weekday and 42 fewer minutes per Saturday than other full-time professionals. On Sundays, teachers and other professionals worked, on average, about the same amount of time. These estimates are averages for all teachers and other professionals who did some work in the week prior to their interview.” (http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf)

I would support paying teachers more, but only if it becomes easier to fire bad teachers and if they are paid based on performance, not seniority. Also, the retirement age shouldn’t be lower than for other professions.

Does that study make any distinction between effective and ineffective teachers? I’m positive the most effective teachers are the ones who are working 50-60 hour weeks.

[John_Mace]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Well, yes, but notice how the lines on that graph track one another in direction;

They do… except when they don’t.

this suggests that there’s correspondence between the two, taht they’re related.

They are loosely related, but not proportional. And they needn’t move in the same direction.

My point is that in a nation in which teachers are paid higher relative to GDP, they’re probably also paid higher relative to median income, compared to countries where they’re paid lower relative to GDP. But a comparison of teacher salaries to median salaries would be a better metric for this, I agree.

Not necessarily. GDP in the us is now roughly 30% higher relative to the median wage than it was in 1989.

But one thing we’re missing in all this discussion is that comparing the US, as a whole, to a country like Finland is looking at it the wrong way. Many states in the US have populations larger than Finland, and we don’t have a centralized educational system in this country. It would be better to look at state-by-state comparisons, or in some cases at school district by school district, since teacher pay can vary quite a bit geographically.

[even_sven]

@Frylock

Does that study make any distinction between effective and ineffective teachers? I’m positive the most effective teachers are the ones who are working 50-60 hour weeks.

I’m not sure if that is necessarily a reasonable conjecture.

I’ve been a teacher, and it is not like other jobs. In an office, you can usually fake your way through an “off” day. If you go through the motions, usually your work gets done.

But teaching is not like that. Teaching is emotional work. Even in routine classes, a teacher really needs to put themselves out there. You can’t just trudge through it or go through the motions- you won’t be emotionally engaged, your students will sense that, and they will respond by disengaging. I’ve taught the exact same class, word for word, to different students and had vastly different results directly related to how much energy I was putting into it. It really takes 100% of your energy, for pretty much the entire class period, to be a teacher. And that is exhausting in a way that office work is not.

Having ample time to prep makes a difference, but I think there are some natural limits on how many hours someone can be in front of a classroom before you hit the point of diminishing returns.

[Lochdale]

What’s the attrition rate for teachers (excluding retirement, early retirement and disability)? If it is such a difficult job then presumably there would be a lot of people leaving the profession.

[John_Mace]

I know we talked about this before, but we gotta get rid of the tenure system if we’re going to jack up the salaries. On the 60 Minutes program last night about the NYC school paying $125k to the teachers in one experimental school, those teachers can be fired (for cause) at any time, just like in the private sector. They noted that in the NYC school system, more teachers had died than had been let go in the last “x” number of years.

[WhyNot]

@John_Mace

I know we talked about this before, but we gotta get rid of the tenure system if we’re going to jack up the salaries. On the 60 Minutes program last night about the NYC school paying $125k to the teachers in one experimental school, those teachers can be fired (for cause) at any time, just like in the private sector. They noted that in the NYC school system, more teachers had died than had been let go in the last “x” number of years.

I’m not sure we have to. That is, the school districts around here are getting slimy lawyers who provided them with a nifty loophole: lay off everyone for next year this spring. Everyone gets a slip saying that they can finish the year but will not have a position next fall. All positions become “downsized.” Then you go around and “rehire” the teachers you want to keep, and the ones you don’t want stay “layed off”. (Didn’t somebody mention this earlier in the thread? I’m too lazy to go look.)

There’s an even easier version that involves growing classrooms at the same time. Can’t “fire” a shitty tenured teacher? Downsize the fifth grade by a classroom and move the students into other teacher’s rooms. You can lay off the shitty teacher because you’ve eliminated the position.

Tenure is NOT the ironclad safety net that adversaries would have you believe.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@John_Mace

I know we talked about this before, but we gotta get rid of the tenure system if we’re going to jack up the salaries. On the 60 Minutes program last night about the NYC school paying $125k to the teachers in one experimental school, those teachers can be fired (for cause) at any time, just like in the private sector. They noted that in the NYC school system, more teachers had died than had been let go in the last “x” number of years.

First, I’m pretty okay with getting rid of tenure. Second, I wonder how the “death before firing” compares to other fields in which there are few mass layoffs and in which all employees need a certain degree to work there.

Third, assuming (and it seems likely to me) that this is a real problem, isn’t it a massive failure of administration? They’re the ones responsible for firing bad employees. It beggars belief that people blame teachers for not getting fired often enough: if anyone’s at fault, it’s the people who should be firing them.

[suranyi]

@Lochdale

What’s the attrition rate for teachers (excluding retirement, early retirement and disability)? If it is such a difficult job then presumably there would be a lot of people leaving the profession.

Here’s an article from the Washington Post that says that half of all teachers quit within five years of starting. That’s pretty amazing considering that usually you need to put effort into getting a teaching credential in the first place.

The article is a few years old but I doubt the statistics have changed much.

My wife has been a teacher for 6 years, and of the people who graduated with her in her class to get the credential, she knows of two that are no longer teachers.

[Voyager]

@pkbites

Would paying cops more result in less crime???

No. :rolleyes: Of course not.

My understanding is that in countries where the police are paid a pittance, it is much more likely for they to give in to temptation and accept and/or solicit bribes. Now I suppose that cops letting drug gangs roam the streets unchecked results in less crime in terms of number of arrests, but I doubt you meant that. If you are putting cops out there against people with lots of cash, you need to give them something to lose if they go corrupt.

How about that kid in poverty never being born in the first place?

Sorry to reveal a “horrible truth” to some of you, but that is step one in the solution.

If the poorer families of our culture were not overwhelming our schools with their bastard children there would be more money to spend (at current budget levels or less) on all education without cuts or tax increases.

So, I assume you are in favor of easy to get birth control and easily available abortions. Very commendable. Still, ranting about how poor kids shouldn’t be born doesn’t help much now they are here.
In our district elementary school test scores correlate extremely well to the number of free breakfasts and lunches - far better than any other metric.

[spazattak]

@John_Mace

I know we talked about this before, but we gotta get rid of the tenure system if we’re going to jack up the salaries. On the 60 Minutes program last night about the NYC school paying $125k to the teachers in one experimental school, those teachers can be fired (for cause) at any time, just like in the private sector. They noted that in the NYC school system, more teachers had died than had been let go in the last “x” number of years.

Tenured teachers can be fired for cause too. This argument usually ends up falling back on administration and school boards, not tenure. If supervisors actually supervised, it would be easy to fire someone, whether or not they had tenure.

Try this biased (conservative) site: Teacher’s Union Facts. If you check state by state, the fire rate of tenured teachers (while significantly lower than national norms) is HIGHER than that of non-tenured teachers. If tenured teachers are sooooo hard to fire, why are they getting fired at a higher rate than their non-tenured counterparts?

[Voyager]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

First, I’m pretty okay with getting rid of tenure. Second, I wonder how the “death before firing” compares to other fields in which there are few mass layoffs and in which all employees need a certain degree to work there.

Third, assuming (and it seems likely to me) that this is a real problem, isn’t it a massive failure of administration? They’re the ones responsible for firing bad employees. It beggars belief that people blame teachers for not getting fired often enough: if anyone’s at fault, it’s the people who should be firing them.

While I’m in favor of getting rid of bad teachers (having seen bad ones in our district moved around to avoid the problems) don’t you think the current political climate is going to make it less likely for teachers to agree to lose tenure? That takes some degree of trust, and of the politicians are maligning teachers this is going to be hard to get. Wouldn’t it be reasonable to worry about any teacher who complains all of a sudden getting a bad review?
Not to mention problems like a teacher trying to teach evolution in the South.

[MandaJo]

@Lochdale

What’s the attrition rate for teachers (excluding retirement, early retirement and disability)? If it is such a difficult job then presumably there would be a lot of people leaving the profession.

The study I cited above claims:

Turnover for teachers is significantly higher than for other occupations (see Figure 1).1 Based on analysis of the most recent data from the National Center for Education Statistics for the 1999-2000 school year, it is estimated that almost a third of America’s teachers leave the field sometime during their first three years of teaching, and almost half leave after five years (see Figure 2).2 In many low-income communities and rural areas, the rates of attrition are even higher (see Figure 3). The attrition rate for those who enter through some “alternative” pathways can be as high as 60 percent.

It also claims that TX has a 15% annual turnover rate.

[Snifit]

@Superhal

Do you have all the qualifications? In my state, I (MA, BA, 10+ years of experience) was allowed to be on the substitute teacher’s list, but not a regular teacher. I had to have a teaching certificate.

@MsRobyn

This is another kettle of fish entirely. The requirement to have a teaching certificate is keeping some very experienced people out of teaching. I know people, both military and civilian, who want to go into teaching once they retire. Unfortunately, they’re looking at more education and more cost for something that may not be worth it in the long run, because many districts (at least in my state) refuse to hire teachers from alternative-certification programs.

I finish my B.Ed. next month, which in my area is the certification to teach. The school board didn’t even consider applications from English teachers and Social Studies teachers. I got an interview, since mathematics teachers are more in demand, but I haven’t heard from any of my colleagues that they were hired as math teachers. A handful got on to the sub list.

I was told to reapply in two years with more teaching experience. Hah!

[Kearsen]

@MandaJo

Ten percent of students in the U.S. are in special ed. If that 10% did significantly better, it would certainly affect student performance in general. And those 10% are certainly part of the students we hope to go forward to live lives as productive citizens (something most special ed students are quite capable of doing, provided they get a good education.

And I see lots of states (2/3 at least) showing shortages in math and science. Those are not minor topics.

This is a problem of decades-long standing. Presumably it will be with us after the economy improves, as it is wont to do.

Right now is kind of a special case, as most states are gutting their education budgets: we are talking about a 20% cut in our district. But even last year, and two years from now? It’s easy to find a job as a teacher, and any number of times I’ve seen classes “taught” by substitutes all year because no one could be found. There are districts where it is hard to get on–affluent suburbs, for the most part–and I do think they over pay their teachers: if you have that many people competing, you are paying too much. But in urban and rural districts–the ones with the lousy scores–it can be a challenge to just get a body in the classroom. I’ve seen this any number of times: it’s why programs like “Teach for America” exist.

Someone struggling to find a job as a teacher must be, IME, working within a pretty strict set of parameters: only a very certain subject, or only a very certain district, or something. And that’s their right. But if someone is willing to work anywhere, it’s generally pretty easy. The thing is, at the wages we are paying, few people are willing to work in an inner city school or out in Bumfuck.

In regards to the math and science teachers, they more often than not go to some coach or other ‘less qualified person’ simply due to what has been expressed in this thread already. Math and Science graduates go on to higher paying jobs because, well everyone wants a math or science degree-d person! Math and Science both have more implications that just a general knowledge of things, math and science majors are usually very good at figuring out the problem (not just figuring out the answer)

I think in Texas, the pension is paid out for the three highest paying years you had teaching. I know for a fact some of my friends have worked for 17 yrs at a place they loved to teach and then take a higher paying job (say out in west Texas) to get that pension number up.

[spazattak]

@Kearsen

In regards to the math and science teachers, they more often than not go to some coach or other ‘less qualified person’ simply due to what has been expressed in this thread already. Math and Science graduates go on to higher paying jobs because, well everyone wants a math or science degree-d person! Math and Science both have more implications that just a general knowledge of things, math and science majors are usually very good at figuring out the problem (not just figuring out the answer)

I think in Texas, the pension is paid out for the three highest paying years you had teaching. I know for a fact some of my friends have worked for 17 yrs at a place they loved to teach and then take a higher paying job (say out in west Texas) to get that pension number up.

So having an experienced teacher in a troubled school is a bad thing? (I’m making some logical leaps here - more rural - harder to recruit good teachers - needing to pay more to bring teachers out).

That same strategy would backfire in Missouri - you leave your school-district, you start back at the beginning of your column.

[erez]

@spazattak

Try this biased (conservative) site: Teacher’s Union Facts. If you check state by state, the fire rate of tenured teachers (while significantly lower than national norms) is HIGHER than that of non-tenured teachers. If tenured teachers are sooooo hard to fire, why are they getting fired at a higher rate than their non-tenured counterparts?

Sorry, but you are interpreting the data incorrectly. Here is the source table: Table 8. Average number of public school teachers and average number of public school teachers who were dismissed in the previous year or did not have their contracts renewed based on poor performance, by tenure status of teachers and state: 2007–08. You could only make this comparison if schools had an equal number of tenured and non-tenured teachers.