Mac Fanatic: Person whose devotion to their machine is fueled only by silly word associations.
(Take THAT, Stoider! :D)
Waaaayyy back when, before I was in the IT industry, I worked at a college where I was the only person on staff with any IT skill at all. I came to like the PC because when someone came to me for technical support (we had an IT manager, who worked off site at the law faculty on the other side of the city) If it was a PC problem, I could usually fix it. If it was a mac problem, I found that the mac was more interested in protecting me from myself than in assisting me.
YMMV; I’ll stick with PCs. The PC might let me make a mistake, but it’ll let me fix it afterward as well. I’d much rather a PC let me make a mistake than have it decide that , no, I don’t really want to do that.
This gets mentioned alot, and I have to say it confounds me. I’ve been working on Macs for what…16 years? Both for myself and as a consultant. The only time I’ve ever had a problem that was beyond my powers, it also proved beyond the powers of professional Apple technicians. (I ultiamtely solved it by ripping out the bad drive that no software was identifying as bad…don’t ask). That is the BEAUTY of mac… they don’t generally suffer from the same sorts of arcane problems that PCs do, hence they do not require the same sorts of heavy-duty technical ability to repair.
But aside from that, I just don’t understand what it is you guys are trying to do that the Mac prevents you doing. I’ve dug around pretty deeply and I don’t recall being stopped from doing so. Or even having gentle suggestions to “turn back!” being pressed upon me. So I’d be grateful for some specifics about this charge, since from my view, my extremely experienced Mac view, it is simply not so.
stoid
No, they just require you to spend $200 to replace the hard drive every time something glitches up.
And Mac people make ridiculous statements? :rolleyes:
Well, that’s all well and good, but that doesn’t mean other Mac users haven’t had those problems.
I never have those “arcane” problems that people say PC’s have. The only time I’ve had problems is when someone else would do something with my PC to mess it up, and it would only take me a little while to figure out the problem and fix it. Other than that, my Windows 98 SE system rarely crashes (And when it does, it’s usually because a 3rd party app was programmed poorly).
I’m with Stoid - worked extensively on both machines, and my Macs have never had any problems even approaching the ones my clones have.
Esprix
Want an example where they are the same?
The Mac just released its new operating system this week and there is already a repair update. The first of many, no doubt.
Where are the companies that test before they ship? That’s what I’m waiting for.
My credentials: I’m a degreed Computer Engineer. 25 years of programming nearly everything from early homebrew computers to Wintels AND Macs. I spend on average 12 hours a day using computers - Macs, Wintels, unix boxes, and assorted other flavors.
Current computers: 3 Macs, 1 Dell.
OS preference: Mac OS
Second choice: unix
Reasons: Too numerous to ummm… enumerate…
Bottom line: Both systems have their pros and cons, I just happen to feel that (for the way I use computers) the Mac hardware, OS, security model, user interface standards, etc. allow me to get more work done at a lower cost. That’s what is important to me. I understand that different people will have different priorities and different biases, therefore I can see where Windows could be the right OS for some people…
There’s so much misinformation throughout this entire thread (on both sides) that I won’t even bother to address most of it.
However, on that whole vanishing menus thing… That’s not a “forgiveness” issue in Windows, it’s a poor multitasking model and it does indeed persist throughout NT, 2000 and ME. Unless my computer is protecting hardware or data, it should give me, “THE USER”, priority. Windows does not and yes this is one of the major irksome issues with Windows that cumulatively impacts productivity and frustrates me to no end.
Recapping: I use both OSes on a daily basis (plus unix routinely). I use Macs because I choose to. I use Wintel computers because there’s a gun at my head…
… but that’s just me.
Damn… I just couldn’t resist commenting on a few recent malignments…
bygdog:
Not really a problem with the Mac either. It may discourage the casual user from doing stupid stuff, but if you know what you’re doing, there’s really no limits. In fact, there’s fewer limits for power users in the MacOS than in the Wintel environment…
SPOOFE:
Well, first of all, I’ve never had any of my Macs’ hard drives “glitch up”. I have, however, bought new drives for my Macs. The last one I got was a 30GB EIDE drive at CompUSA for $69 after rebate. My buddy bought one just like it for his PC. Interesting true story: Mine installed and was formatted in about 10 minutes out of the box. It took my friend nearly two weeks of calls to Maxtor before he had all of his dip switches properly set and his BIOS properly configured… of course, about half of that was spent listening to muzak…
I’ll tell you something else, somewhat related. I’ve had to call in for technical help with some of my more high-end software (on both platforms). When I’m talking to PC techs, they always invariably suggest that I try wiping and reformatting my disk… what’s up with that? I’ve only ever had one Mac tech suggest that and she admitted that it was her first day on Mac tech support… she normally worked on Windows support!
Sadly, I’ve had to resort to a “clean install” of Windows on a number of occasions.
I’ve never had to do this on a Mac… not even my Lisa, which in answer to an earlier question by Lemming, yes Apple sold the Lisa.
[brag]
I even still have my loose leaf version of the original “Inside Macintosh”. Surely a geek collectors item!
[/brag]
You said.
Well your Mac expertise may be excellent, but you apparently you are quite confused about Windows. I suspect that you are overstating your Windows expertise, because what you just said makes no sense.
“Vanishing windows”? “forgiveness”? WTF???
Menus have got absolutely nothing to do with the multitasking model. Unless you mean to say that only one application can have a menu showing at a time? Is the Mac any different in this respect? That’s news to me.
Please explain, how exactly to get menus on Windows to ‘vanish?’. You aren’t talking about the ‘fade out’ effect are you? I’ll admit I don’t like that much and turn it off on all of my machines, but can’t see how even a semi-knowledgable person would confuse that with multitasking…
All versions of Windows except NT Server give the user priority. The boost the ‘foreground’ process priority by 2 points and, since the OS is premptively multitasked, This means that whichever process that user is interacting with automatically gets to hog the CPU if it wants to.
Of course, unlike the Mac (which has only cooperative multitasking), non-forground processes still get some CPU time, so I guess you could argue that on the Mac the ‘user’ priority boost is infinite. Way to make a virtue out a f a vice.
Of course, since OSX has true multitasking, the Mac is about to loose that ‘advantage’ :rolleyes: .
I find that when Mac users sit down at a PC and expect to to behave like a Mac, they are constantly disappointed; But when they use the PC on it’s own terms, they find that their frustration goes away.
For instance, I find that experienced Mac users spend a lot more time rearranging their desktop than experienced Windows users do. The Mac seems to facilitate and demand this as part general operation. But that idea doesn’t translate. It is both more cumbersome and less necessary for PC users to rearrange their desktop as part of some other task.
tj
This is absolute nonsense. Although it may seem so to you because you are a Mac power user and a Windows neophyte.
DIP Switches? You are either lying thought your teeth, or you are comparing a Late '90s Mac with a late 80s PC.
PC motherboards stopped using dip switches for ANY purpose about the time the Pentium chip came out, and stopped using them for HD configuration before even the 486.
And since a normal MAC was able to use EIDE drives only AFTER the switch to the PPC chip (and even then, they mostly used SCSI), you are clearly comparing a modern Mac to an DOS era PC. Or perhaps you are just making this up? I’m beginning to wonder…
Invariably suggest? Bullshit.
Once again, you have either lead an extremely unusual life or are being less than truthful. My wife (Mac user and local guru at her Mac-only company) is sometimes told by phone in tech support to reinstall the OS. She once told me that she has do this every 6 months or so on her bosses Mac because over time he will screw things up so bad this is the only way to be sure of a fix. On her own machine, of course, she has no such problem and only installs the OS to update to the next version.
Once again, you compare worst case PC to best case Mac.
tj
Congratulations. Those bulk discount sales are a real wet dream, ain’t they?
I know exactly what you are talking about, I used to do OEM support for Compaq and HP computers. Most of the brand-name computers come with disks that will automatically reformat the drive and reinstall the software that initially came preinstalled on the system. A lot of times techs will have the customer use these. Why?
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Customer is complaining of intermittent lockups or errors and he cannot duplicate the problem and he has no helpful information for determining what it was - do you get these when a certain application is running? ‘I’m not sure’ Does the blue screen list any file names? ‘I can’t remember’. If they can’t troubleshoot the problem and the customer insists we do something anyway, they will often give the customer this as an option, it rules out hardware problems that would be covered under the warranty if it fixes the problem.
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A full reinstall IS sometimes necessary. If the problem is obviously a corrupted piece of software that came preinstalled on the computer that doesn’t have a disk of it’s own (and it’s probably not going to, this is where you pay for the ‘Hundreds of dollars worth of free software’) it is going to be necessary. Another reason we often had to have them do the full reinstall was directly because of customer laziness - the OEM version of Windows that came on some of our machines would prompt you to make backups of the .CAB files and an emergency boot floppy, but you could skip and say you would do this later. If the customer did this and we needed to replace part of their OS, we would have to run the reinstall disk.
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Tech is lazy and/or poorly trained. This, unfortunately, is pretty commonin OEM support. They have hundreds of thousands of customers to support, often dozens of platforms with various operating systems, and they also have to be at least somewhat knowledgeable about all the crap trial version software that comes on the hard drive as well. Sometimes it’s obvious the problem can be solved without having to do a full reinstall, but the tech doesn’t want to bother renaming and extracting the proper files, rebooting the computer twice, etc., or doesn’t know how. They will try to push a reinstall when not necessary and since the techs are encouraged to keep calls short (this is a one reason why you will get told to run a scandisk and call back) they generally won’t get in trouble for it (they can always lie about how you described the problem).
None of the problems above have anything to do with PCs in general or the various Windows OSs. The problem is that you bought your computer from some big name manufacturer like Compaq or Dell that is ripping you off by selling you an overpriced machine, crappy OEM software, and poor tech support. Someone so knowledgeable about computers should have known that it’s best to build your own or buy a bare-bones system and install what you need on it. In that case, you would not even have a ‘recovery disk’ or ‘Quickrestore’, you would have the disks for whatever OS you chose so if you need drivers, new components, or to replace bad files you can just pull them off the right CD. You could call Microsoft tech support, and they are several degrees better than what you will get calling some big-name computer manufacturer, they will fix the problem if it is with your OS and if it’s not, you can contact whoever made whatever program is giving you trouble.
JoeyBlades:
Not a multitasking issue at all. The issue is that Windows likes to close popup menus when another window is created. Yes, it’s annoying, but it’s relatively minor - certainly not the result of some inescapable underlying design flaw.
Hey, as long as we’re telling anecdotes… I recently built a PC from parts, saving hundreds of dollars. Among other things, I got a hard drive. Installing an EIDE hard drive requires 1) setting the master/slave jumper, 2) physically installing the drive and connecting cables, and 3) configuring the BIOS.
The first two steps are common to both PC and Mac. The BIOS configuration involves pressing a key when the computer boots, then using a simple menu system to auto-detect the drive. There are no dip switches on the motherboard or drive.
The only problem I had was that the drive was using ATA/33 instead of ATA/100, because I installed the cable backwards. A boxed retail drive would have come with an explanation for the color coding.
And around and around and around and around and around and around…
Would the OP consider asking this thread be closed? I don’t see anything new being posted here.
Just a thought.
Esprix
Well, I was going to reply to Joey, but I guess everyone already did for me.
I’m wondering if Chas.E is ever going to apologize.
people are still contributing and reading, why close the thread? When people are no longer interested, it will die on its own, without help. Leave it be.
stoid
The thing is, dear Stoid, that it looks like this is turning into a “Personal Anecdote” thread rather than a debate.
“Well, a friend of mine once had THIS problem…”
“Well, MY friend DIDN’T! But he had THIS problem…”
“Well, that’s not how things usually are… unlike THIS problem…”
Etc. etc. etc.