Peak oil and the Malthusian catastrophe.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

@Una_Persson

I could write for hours on this, but I think I should stop now.

No, don’t stop

I see what you mean. The articles I read had to do with exporting the met coal you mentioned to China to help them build their high-speed rail lines (a nice anti-Malthusian catastrophe project btw). I saw figures increasing to ~30 million tons/year, with prices projected to increase to $200/ton. So we’re talking $6 billion in exports right there- not exactly enough to make us the Saudi Arabia of coal.

But as for Africa… well I am taking your word for it, but it looks like we don’t have the kind of coal they want for power generation. If it really comes down to facing a Malthusian catastrophe I can imagine African nations contracting to import large quantities of the less-desirable stuff, and tooling their plants in advance to burn it. Any possibility of that happening, or is that unrealistic?

[Una_Persson]

@Try2B_Comprehensive

But as for Africa… well I am taking your word for it, but it looks like we don’t have the kind of coal they want for power generation. If it really comes down to facing a Malthusian catastrophe I can imagine African nations contracting to import large quantities of the less-desirable stuff, and tooling their plants in advance to burn it. Any possibility of that happening, or is that unrealistic?

CAPP/NAPP coal will work in SA boilers, and possibly some cleaned Illinois Basin coal, but SA will be able to get Australian and other coals for cheaper prices. And as I said, the entire Appalachian region is pretty dicey - environmental and government action could halt new production, or even reverse it, and the area has been developed for more than 100 years after all, so resources are falling.

Yes, SA plants could be modified to burn lower-ranks coals. I’ve done innumerable studies on that subject with power plants all over the world. It’s just a matter of money, and many plants designed for much better coals have successfully downgraded.

[Quartz]

@Try2B_Comprehensive

Let’s not get carried away. Googling around some more I found an example of a major alternative energy project in Colorado with some good associated data. Let me know what you think:

Development of the Cedar Point Wind Energy Project aligns not only with Enbridge’s goals, but with those of the state of Colorado as well. On March 22, 2010, Colorado Gov. Bill Ritter signed into law landmark legislation that gives the state the highest renewable energy standard in the Rocky Mountain West, requiring that 30 percent of the state’s electricity be generated from renewable sources by 2020.

I did just change the subject to wind power- there seem to be bigger projects in wind compared to solar in the US right now. Notice they’re getting 250 megawatts for a half-billion dollars.

And how many megawatts will it supply when there’s no wind? You cannot rely on solar or wind power. You need something else for baseline load.

[Lumpy]

@Quartz

And how many megawatts will it supply when there’s no wind? You cannot rely on solar or wind power. You need something else for baseline load.

Which is why some people are on the hydrogen-infrastructure bandwagon. It provides one of the few plausible ways large amounts of energy could be efficiently stored.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

@Quartz

@Try2B_Comprehensive

Notice they’re getting 250 megawatts for a half-billion dollars.

And how many megawatts will it supply when there’s no wind? You cannot rely on solar or wind power. You need something else for baseline load.

Feels like a bare assertion.

Right now, today, I’d say we do not have much of what I term ‘municipal battery’ infrastructure. I am not saying it would be cheap or easy to do, but it would not require either Star Trek technology, unobtainably scarce materials nor the murder of foreigners to achieve.

Here is a link discussing a kind of mass-scale battery that has been in the news these days, the Zinc Bromine Flow battery:

Unlike the lead acid and most other batteries, the ZESS uses electrodes that cannot and do not take part in the reactions but merely serve as substrates for the reactions. There is therefore no loss of performance, unlike most rechargeable batteries, from repeated cycling causing electrode material deterioration.

In the fully discharged state the ZESS can be left indefinitely.

The ZESS 500 holds 500 kWh, which is actually ten of the ZESS 50s strung together, and is used for commercial or utility applications. Exhibit 4 shows the ZESS 50 and ZESS 500. These storage devices can be located anywhere in ambient temperatures and transported to support the need of renewable energy to mitigate utility congestion. The �Turnkey� capabilities are beneficial based on the ease of simply plugging the batteries into the grid or other alternative source. Furthermore, these products are predominantly manufactured with recyclable plastics, allowing for low production costs and economical mass production.

The ZESS systems store energy from a number of sources and are highly compatible with global renewable energy markets: wind, solar, hydroelectric, biofuels, ocean power, and biomass. The ZESS 500 is easily transported on a 20-foot trailer and weighs approximately 30,000 pounds. The modular design aims to increase or decrease power needed by either adding or subtracting modules in the string

Deploy a number of these (empty) municipal batteries around town, and run your town with wind and solar power. Any time the supply of power nudges over the demand (like at night) the excess is stored in the batteries. Any time the demand exceeds the supply (like dark, cloudy days), the difference is made up by the batteries. A smart-grid system plugged into a large base of EVs magnifies the capacity of this effect.

The really great thing about it is that it complements coal, gas, and nuclear power generation very well too. Instead of burning through mass amounts of fuel to deal with huge daily load peaks, allow the batteries to make up some of the difference and just chill out. Renewables cooperating with, say, a much smaller natural gas plant could turn in good results. Add household-scale microgeneration(solar)/storage and you’re in like Flynn! You probably won’t see a set-up like this anytime soon in places like, say, Uganda, however.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

@Lumpy

@Quartz

And how many megawatts will it supply when there’s no wind? You cannot rely on solar or wind power. You need something else for baseline load.

Which is why some people are on the hydrogen-infrastructure bandwagon. It provides one of the few plausible ways large amounts of energy could be efficiently stored.

Mentions of hydrogen feel like an attempt to derail the conversation. That seems to be the effect it had on the national energy discussion when the Bushies were pushing it. Do you have any actual hydrogen projects (with numbers) you can cite? Let me guess… no?

[Lumpy]

@Try2B_Comprehensive

@Lumpy

Which is why some people are on the hydrogen-infrastructure bandwagon. It provides one of the few plausible ways large amounts of energy could be efficiently stored.

Mentions of hydrogen feel like an attempt to derail the conversation. That seems to be the effect it had on the national energy discussion when the Bushies were pushing it. Do you have any actual hydrogen projects (with numbers) you can cite? Let me guess… no?

I mention that hydrogen has been proposed as one part of the overall energy solution- which it has- and you basically dismiss it as a scam and denigrate me for even mentioning it. Lighten up will you?

[Lemur866]

@xtisme

Why would you think I wouldn’t like it? I would LOVE it if we could use more alternative energy. I also think that we WILL be using more alternative energy in the future. Sadly, ‘more’ means we go from a percentage point or so to, oh, say 5%.

But I believe that these small improvements are what’s really going to make a difference. Small improvements in efficiency, small improvements in getting more renewable energy. And efficiency improvements are the real win–a gigawatt of power that isn’t generated because we put some insulation in the attics is a lot better than a gigawatt from a new solar plant. There’s a lot of room for improvements in efficiency. We don’t need to be energy hogs to keep/improve our standard of living, the old idea that every increase in GDP requires a proportional increase in energy consumption isn’t true.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

@Lumpy

@Try2B_Comprehensive

Mentions of hydrogen feel like an attempt to derail the conversation. That seems to be the effect it had on the national energy discussion when the Bushies were pushing it. Do you have any actual hydrogen projects (with numbers) you can cite? Let me guess… no?

I mention that hydrogen has been proposed as one part of the overall energy solution- which it has- and you basically dismiss it as a scam and denigrate me for even mentioning it. Lighten up will you?

I didn’t mean to denigrate you. I suppose I could lighten up. See? —> (click the smiley)

But I think you need to face the fact that hydrogen power is a chimera. At least in this era. My feeling was that the pro-oil/anti-green guys pushed this red herring around the last time there was a lot of activity around EVs. No offense, but it is kind of the conspiracy theory of alternative energy.