That would be Gino Bartali, who won in 1938 and again in 1948. However, most people would say that his teammate Fausto Coppi was even better. Coppi also won the Tour twice (in 1949 and 1952) and also won the Giro five times (1940, 1947, 1949, 1952, and 1953). As you can see from the year of that first Giro victory, Coppi’s career was also hampered by the war.
Well, I much prefer German “wurst” to the meat byproducts they sell here! But then you’ll probably agree with me there also. I’ve become so acclimatized here, I even collect “zegels”, “airmiles” and “bonuspunten” like there is no tomorrow. 
[hijack]So, what do you think of van Basten and van 't Schip as the new “bondscoaches”?[/hijack]
Oh yeah? Well Indurain’s heart rate at rest was 28 bpm. What was Merckx’s, huh? Actually, I wasn’t around for Merckx’s reign, so you know how it goes. You always have a romantic attachment to people who you’ve seen perform. It’s kind of like how anyone born after 1975 will say that Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player ever, while those around a bit longer tend to disagree more.
Sorry, I never saw Merckx perform myself either (I’m not young, but I’m not that old either). But you just can’t argue with the list of wins he had. Indurain may have had a better heart rate at rest, but ask anyone who knows cycling and none will argue that Merckx had more heart than anyone else. They didn’t call him “The Cannibal” for nothing.
Indurain was an incredibly well-tuned machine. His specialty was time trialing (he was also a very good climber for his size) where he would demolish his competition. Merckx however could do everything. He could sprint, he could climb, he could do time trials (witness his hour record in 1973, and winning all three jerseys in the same Tour), he could do anything. Armstrong reminds me more of Merckx than of Indurain, because he is probably not the absolute best time trialer out there, but he is a consummate tactician and can do almost everything. The only reason I think Merckx is better is because he did not prepare exclusively for the Tour, but also raced (and won) all the spring classics and other multi-stage races (Giro, Vuelta, Tour de Suisse, Milan - San Remo, Paris - Roubaix etc.).
Armstrong prepares only for the Tour (which he admittedly does better than anyone else). Once Armstrong wins four Giros and Paris - Roubaix and Milan - San Remo five times each (to go along with his Tour wins) you can honestly compare him to Merckx.
When did Hinault help LeMond? As I remember it, Hinault tried to win himself when he was supposed to be working for LeMond.
You are correct. I guess I misremembered. I just checked, and it seems Hinault had promised to ride for Lemond in 1986 if Lemond helped Hinault in 1985. Then Hinault kept attacking Lemond throughout the Tour of '86 and actually wore yellow for a long time. Hinault’s response was that Lemond needed to learn how to win through adversity. I guess you could say he was helping Lemond in his own way (he was definitely not acting like a normal “domestique” should).
P.S.: “Domestique” is the French name for the teammates who try to help their team leader win the Tour.
So, by how large a margin do you all think Lance will take over yellow today? And will he take more time away from his main rivals or will he wait for the Mountain Time Trial tomorrow? Or will he actually prove to be mortal and have his first bad day in years? I am really curious to see how today’s stage (with one first category and three second category climbs) and tomorrow’s time trial will change the standings.
Nobody is going to push Armstrong too hard. Yet again, the peloton has surrendered to him by the 2/3rd mark - which is a real shame for mine. Well, it’s a shame in the context of seeing a great champion really “fight” for their win.
We were talking about Hinault and Le Mond earlier, and Hinault definitely made Greg fight for that first win in 1986. He basically made it clear to him - “If you don’t wanna win this then it’s me who’s gonna win the tour for a record 6th time. Think about that…”
However, it’s something which has always bugged me regarding Armstrong’s wins - namely, he’s never really had to claw his way back into the lead after losing it to someone. He’s never had that other “great rival” like Tony Rominger was to Indurain or Fignon was Hinault in 83-84. I know, I know… we talk about Ulrich never finishing worse than 2nd but realistically he never truly ever made Armstrong eat a massive dose of humble pie in the mountains.
Indeed, in the last 5 years no-one has ever taken a big chunk out of Armstrong’s lead and made him fight back for it. And the same thing is going to happen again this year. All credit to the guy - nobody pushes the pedals but Lance himself - nonetheless, I just reckon that if a guy is gonna win the Tour de France for a record 6th time he should have had to fight harder for it than he looks like he’s going to this year. From a purist’s point of view, his performance is impressive at a clinical level but as the French say, it’s a tour win “sans pinache”.
That being said, Lance Armstrong is definitely using some absolutely exquisite equipment. I’d love to ride on those wicked carbon fibre wheels he’s riding on. The hubs and the rims are all carbon fibre - beautiful stuff. Less than a kilo for both wheels combined - excluding the cluster of course.
Yep, Ulrich is quickly becoming the next “Joop Zoetemelk” or “Raymond Poulidor”. At least Joop gave Merckx, van Impe and Hinault some real scares in the mountains. “PouPou” actually finished second to both Anquetil (in 1964, by 55 seconds!!!) and Merckx (1974). That’s pretty amazing, but I guess you can consider it bad luck to have to race at the same time as two great cyclists like that.
Adri van der Poel!
If you get that one, Mycroft, then I suggest you pick up your Dutch passport at city hall, cause man, you’ve earned it.
About the bondscoach thing: what’s this trend about dual coaching, anyway? Back in the day, one coach was appointed and he then chose his own lieutenant. These days, they’re all described as pairs. What is this, dance class?
Having said that: I responded to the Van Basten/Van 't Schip nomination with a resounding “meh”. I don’t think they’ve proven their capabilities all that much yet (sorry, one impressive year with the Ajax youth just isn’t enough), and while there will never be any discussion about Van Basten’s player talent, I have have my reservations about his trainer skills.
Then again, if he can get us the world title in die Heimat in 2006, I suggest we make him King of the Netherlands.
Well, he did finally win in 1996 (at the age of 37!), after having finished second for five times. We are of course talking about “veldrijden” (I think it’s called cyclo-cross in English) right? Not for nothing did Adri get the nickname “de eeuwige tweede” (eternal second place), but he was allowed to drop it in 1996.
So, where do I pick up my passport again? Oh right, city hall. I’ll drop by the “stadshuis” tomorrow then, with a printout of this thread as proof of citizenship.
(Following on the Internet --replays tonight!)
What do the riders do with their helmets? I haven’t caught any taking off or putting on, on TV, but on the mountains they disappear. How do they work this?
Actually, they’re only allowed to remove the helmets if the stage ENDS in a climb, like it did today and on Saturday. They remove the helmets at the start of the final climb and actually hand them to people from their team who are waiting at the bottom of the climb. I watched the whole stage on Saturday and you could clearly see them tossing their helmets to the helpers before climbing to Plateau de Beille.
Thanks, Mycroft.
Lance rules.
But Basso has been very impressive–I can’t wait to see what he does tomorrow.
Well, at least Ullrich tried on the fouth climb and had almost a minute on him before getting caught before the last climb. If Ullrich is in good shape for the time trial up to Alpe D’Huez tomorrow it might become interesting again, because Armstrong has to be tired after the last three mountain stages. Then on Thursday there’s the Glandon and the Madeleine right after each other. Things might just become interesting again if Ullrich (or maybe Basso or Klöden) can actually prove that Lance is human also.
The most amazing come from behind win in the Tour still has to be Lemond in 1989. Laurent Fignon had a comfortable lead (50 seconds) with only a short time trial (less than 30 kilometers) to go. Nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody thought Lemond could make up that much time in that short of a distance. He ended up beating Fignon by 58 seconds and winning the Tour by a margin of 8 seconds!
Was that time trial the last stage of The Tour? Because normally, the final time trial is on the penultimate stage, which would still give a rider who is a good sprinter a chance in Paris, especially with the time bonus.
To me, Ullrich’s quote from Saturday (in our Sunday paper) is the most telling for this year.
“I have rarely pushed myself so hard, but after seven mountains and more than 200 kilometers under conditions that should really be ideal for me, I must admit: Lance appears to be unbeatable this year.”
The point is that Lance would never say that. No matter how hard a stage is, Lance has always already pushed himself much, much harder. I think that is the real difference.
As a matter of fact it was. That whole Tour was the most exciting I have ever seen. Pedro Delgado finished third (3’34" back), and considering he was penalized three minutes after the prologue for showing up late (I kid you not!), the first three racers would have finished within 42 seconds of each other if that hadn’t happened. :eek: Here is a summary of the lead changes between Greg Lemond and Laurent Fignon in that Tour:
Prologue: They both finish with the same time
second stage: (team time trial) Fignon’s team wins and he leads Lemond by 51 seconds.
fifth stage: Individual time trial won by Lemond. Lemond leads by five seconds.
tenth stage: Fignon gains 12 seconds on Lemond in the Pyrenees and leads him by seven seconds.
fifteenth stage: A 39km long mountain time trial. Lemond gains 47 seconds and now loeads by 40 seconds.
sixteenth stage: On the first long stage in the Alps, Lemond gains another 13 seconds and leads by 53 seconds.
seventeenth stage: Fignon gains a minute and 19 seconds on Lemond on the climb to Alpe D’Huez and leads Lemond by 26 seconds.
eighteenth stage: Fignon wins the stage and gains another 24 seconds on Lemond. fignon leads by 50 seconds.
Last stage: A time trail over 24.5 km. Lemond wins 58 seconds ahead of Fignon(who had already congratulated Lemond on his second place finish) and wins the whole Tour by 8 seconds!
Considering the whole last stage only lasted about half an hour it was amazing to actually gain almost a full minute on one rider! :eek: That Tour de France is why I watch every year now.
Why don’t they do that more often? I always find the final stage to be quite boring. Fine, they’re sipping champagne on their bikes. And then they sprint down the Champs, which is OK. But a time trial for the championship would be the most exciting thing to watch. Imagine how exciting last year’s race would’ve been.