Yes, current approaches probably don’t do it now, but that wasn’t the question. A therapist is somebody motivated to try and help another person, and in the project I was thinking about, it wouldn’t be pedophiles who already molested children, but people who have a desire they can’t act out. I don’t see why a therapist shouldn’t feel sympathy for the difficult situation they are in, and try to use ever tool that works to help them.
Like I said, I don’t know what real psychologists / neurologists know about that. I think because everything about human sexuality is so charged, that studies generally are too few, and it will take more time to thoroughly research everything. But once we do research, we find out either that simulated porn reduces the desire (obviously, not in 100% of the pedophiles, but a signifanct amount would already be worth something), or that it does nothing/ accelerates the desires. In the latter case, we need to try another approach.
I think it’s also likely that we need several different approaches anyway, because I suspect that “the typical pedophile” doesn’t exist, but instead, several different types: one, who are really emotionally stunted / have been abused and need therapy to move on; another, who are wired to feel desire regardless of maturity, who need a way to cope with it; a third who are … I don’t know.
Well, we already have many people creating manga and anime with characters that look like school-children. I also wonder if a software programmer / video person really cares about what 's on the screen, or if he only concentrates on the technical problems of rendering the movements naturally etc.
When Masters or Johnson, the sex researchers, were asked if they were peeping toms for watching other people have sex, the guy answered (paraphrased) “Well, if you look at 50 or a 100 couples having sex, you could be a peeping tom. But if you look at a 1000 couples, you no longer feel anything, it becomes clinical.”
That’s a very interesting question. With the conventional explanation that pedophiles are stunted, it seems to be about lust. Although when convicted molesters tell about their attraction to the victim, it sounds like they feel it’s a relationship. And the victims often tell how much effort the molester puts into manipulation to make the child feel that he wants it. Okay, some of that might be a way to rationalize their guilt, but it’s still different from a normal rape/ sex with adult-oriented people.
Also, if the desire is hard-wired, like being gay, then they would want a real relationship and not only quick sex.
Well, quite honestly, I DO think my sympathy ends once a person acts on said feelings. Like I said – get help. See your psychiatrist. I don’t think a doctor is required to report someone who hasn’t or isn’t planning on acting on said feelings.
However, my pity is for those who admit to having a problem. Who admit that they need help. For those who claim their feelings are perfectly all right, because they’re natural, well, then you’re an asshole. (Think NAMBLA.)
*“Natural” does NOT mean “good”. Snake venom, after all, is “natural.” That doesn’t mean that I’m going to put it in my coffee. So, yes, your feelings are “natural.” But they’re also wrong, and you need HELP.
Well, we could try not the tumescene measure, but self-reporting. Those pedophiles who are aware enough of the problem - instead of using rationalisations to justify going after children - to seek counseling help could rate how strong their desire is before and after watching artifical porn in a controlled setting. True, it’s not an absolute test, but at least a start.
We could also try and compare how adult-oriented porn works on adult-oriented people. Do people who live in situations where they can’t have sex (prisons, submarines etc) feel less or more pressure if they get “Playboy” magazines?
I think that they are filth,just the same as people who prey on old people and
those a get a kick out of rape,you asked for my opinion,thats my opinion.
You guys are making some good points, and I find myself examining my thoughts a little closer on this.
I could see a controlled study, using computer generated images only, to see if it did help reduce the incidence of molestation/rape. I know I’m not against porn. I remember years ago a case where someone got in trouble for pictures that he drew and stories he had written regarding child rape. I didn’t at the time, and don’t now feel that he should have been charged with anything.
I certainly wouldn’t advocate thought crime laws…
And I don’t believe that victimless crimes should be prosecuted.
It’s an interesting question, really. The conventional wisdom is that pedophiles cannot be rehabilitated. Maybe they can’t. But what have we really tried, I wonder?
And, as has been pointed out, there are several different levels of pedophilia. (Though to be honest, I have never been able to wrap my mind around the concept of “situational” molesters.)
I’m going to have to explore this particular concept a little more. I’m not sure exactly what I think about it.
The person who asked the question isn’t the person who didn’t like your answer.
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but, it seems to have accepted here that there is a world of difference between having obscene/unnatural/harmful (take your pick) thoughts, and acting on them, though perhaps not by yourself. How could you tell if someone is having pedophilic thoughts in the first place (unless they told you, which considering your stance, is very unlikely). Are you honestly saying that it would give you pleasure, and/or be a viable solution for you, personally, to kill anyone whose thoughts you didn’t like? Are you suggesting that this should be legal, or that you would be happy to act outside the law?
I think that people may not like your answer because to understand it properly the above points would need to be addressed. As it stands, it’s strong on emotion, but weak on practicalities.
No, I don’t and we shouldn’t. If you can keep it under control and shut up about it all good and good, but if you actually a commit a crime, then TOO BAD, and they deserve to be punished.
…a sentiment we hear far too rarely on this board. Thank you.
They care, but the desire to accomplish a technically competent piece of work can overwhelm the view of what the work is. I experienced this the day after my mother died. She was to be cremated, and I spent a couple of hours scanning and cleaning up images of her to create large prints for the memorial service. After a while, I was looking at pixels, not my own mother.
If we’re thinking of the same case, I believe that guy had already been convicted of actual sex offenses, and he was instructed not to create visual or fictional pornography as a condition of his parole. Naturally, one wonders how long it would have taken for him to commit yet another crime against an actual child.
The whole “virtual porn” issue is a sticky wicket. Where do you draw the line? The CPPA of '96 was ruled unconstitutional because it would have classified legitimate films like American Beauty as child pornography. It’s true that mere drawings, paintings, and computer-generated imagery can be created without causing actual harm to a child, but it does raise the question if such material encourages pedophiles to view their orientation as legitimate, and perhaps make them more likely to act on those sexual urges.
Family nudist camps, in particular, are a hotbed for pedophiles. There were many nudist-oriented magazines published in the '60s & '70s where the underage subjects were later discovered to be victimized by genuine child pornography – this situation continues today, in fringe markets located in former Soviet countries.
However, I think it’s a mistake to restrict our civil liberties just because someone like Cesario might get sexually aroused by a Coppertone ad. Even if there was some rock-solid test to screen out pedophiles and remove them from the general population, there will always be more to fill that void. The best defense, I think, is for parents to be hyper-vigilant whenever some creepy pedo starts lusting after their children – remember, most sexual predators target children who already come from dysfunctional families.
That’s kind of awful…I always thought of nudist camps as being pretty innocent. Places where it stops being about “OMG, boobs, penis!” because it’s so commonplace. But I guess a certain kind of person will be attracted to it no matter how innocent it is for most people.
There’s definitely an emotional attraction, albeit an aberrant one. It’s important to understand that for most genuine pedophiles, the desired relationship is NOT about exerting power over someone young and helpless – instead, it’s about returning to a state of childhood themselves. Some pedophile activists like Cesario will claim that there’s a coming-of-age or mentoring component involved, as evidenced by certain cultures like the Classical Greeks or the semen warriors of New Guinea – but that’s almost exclusively the domain of ephebophilia (i.e. an exclusive attraction to teenagers), not pedophilia. Not to mention that there are vastly different cultural factors which come in to play here.
One thing that stands out for me is the pedophile’s tendency to objectify children – not necessarily in a sexual manner, but instead as objects of innocence. The problem lies in the fact that many pedophiles don’t discriminate between actual images of innocence, and children who have been victimized. Even today, there are several YouTube channels run by pedophile activists, which contain photo montages of choirboys and Disney Channel actors posted right next to similar montages of cropped kiddy porn.
A long time ago, there was a pedophile-run website (now long gone) which hosted galleries of artistic nudity (i.e. Sally Mann, Jock Sturges, etc.) alongside non-nude images of young Russian models. A visitor pointed out that many of the Russian models were actually victims of an organized pornography ring, and that the children had been murdered by the criminals shortly before the ring was busted. (The rumor was later proven to be false, btw.) The webmaster came back with a reply along the lines of, “Oh that’s very sad, but we must always remember the beauty and innocence of these children when they were alive…”
It’s difficult to feel sympathy for people who possess that degree of extreme psychological disconnect. :mad:
Oh, I didn’t mean to disrespect nudist camps in general. I think it’s laudable for parents to teach children not to be ashamed of their bodies. And I think it’s critical for society as a whole to NOT restrict our civil liberties due to a few bad apples – these perverts will always find some way to satisfy their desires, whether we like it or not. The best defense, as always, is for parents to teach their children how to recognize the warning signs, and stay far away from any stranger who seems to take undue interest in them. It’s not a perfect solution, but it’s the best we can possibly come up with for now.
Yes, I feel sympathy. Sympathy doesn’t cost me anything, after all.
For the porn issue, there is extant child porn that could be used. I mentioned in another thread that I wonder what would happen if certain extant porn titles were made available under very specific conditions. Would child porn aficionados put their names into a database, for example, in order to have “legal” child porn? It would be a license, essentially, with the documentation that goes along with licensing.
You were asked for your opinion. It wasn’t stated, however, that your opinion would not be commented on. I can pity those who do not act upon their urges, even if I still think they’re scum. But as I keep saying, if they don’t make an effort to get help and admit they have a problem, then that’s where my sympathy ends.
(There are such things as FAMILY nudist camps?!?! :eek: I thought nudist colonies were strictly adults only?)
Yes there is already existing child pornography. It exploited real children. I can’t imagine any of those children or families would be supportive of using it for any purposes. I think effort should only be put into destroying it. Taking action to further distribute it is a disgusting act against those victims. To me any child porn that involved real children in making it is not acceptable. So artificially created is the only option.
The concept of registering it is interesting. Not sure what the purpose would be. I think it feeds into the fears people have. We don’t make people register to watch adult porn so we have a database to look at when it comes to rapists.
When I was a child, my family had a summer cabin at a nudist camp in Kansas. It was a wonderful place with a pond for swimming and berry patches up on the hill. The camp owner lived in a train caboose that had been hauled in. Our cabin was an A-frame that my dad had built. We could hunt morel mushrooms in the woods and fry them up with eggs. Driving to the camp, we could hardly wait to get our clothes off.
It was one of the least sexually charged environments I have ever been in. There were dozens of families, some with many children. All this was well before I had hit puberty. I had never heard anything about any inappropriate behavior towards any of the children, nor have I heard my older brother or my older and younger sisters indicate that they had ever heard of any.
We couldn’t tell other people about the camp unless we could trust them implicitly, and we would check with our parents first. My Dad was a cop at the time, and this could have gotten him kicked off the KCPD. I’m sure if there was any reason to be suspicious of anyone in the camp, his cop instinct would have alerted him.
I don’t have any pictures or 8mm film of our summer vacations at the camp, because the insane over-sensitivity that has arisen in the past couple of decades, our home movies would be consider “child porn”, even though it’s just naked men, women and children.
The only lasting effect that I’ve noticed on myself is the ability to appreciate a wide variety of body types and an inability to take clothing and fashion seriously.
