Bears eat a lot of fruit too, yet you consider them carnivores. What’s your definition of carnivore here?
The obvious proeelm is that there are species of opossum that are far more carnivorous than most bears, yet are still preyed upon routinely by jaguars.
I’ll ask again, do you have anything at all to support these apparently wildly inaccurate claims?
“Side-striped jackals are prey to leopards, hyenas and eagles.”
“Long-tailed weasels are prey for a number of predators. Their primary predators are red fox (Vulpes vulpes) and gray fox (Urocyon cinereoargenteus). Other predators are … coyotes (Canis latrans), martens (Martes americana), bobcats (Lynx rufus),… domestic cats (Felis cattus) and dogs (Canis lupus familiaris).” http://ecoregion.ucr.edu/full.asp?sp_num=110
Cheetahs do indeed hunt gazelle, they also hunt jackals and foxes routinely. Lions will eat jackals if they can get them, they also routinely eat meerkats if they can get them. Your idea that carnivores don’t hunt carnivores is simply dead wrong.
I notice you don’t even attempt to address the urban myth that pumas are more likely to attack vegetarians.
I assume all this is just your way of admitting that you can’t provide anything like a reference and this idea that carnivores don’t routinely hunt carnivores is something you made up out of whole cloth.
This is GQ man. Try to be a bit more factual with your replies.
To echo scr4…I can’t stop our cats from getting into our closet and shedding on my black pants, I don’t think I could stop them from leaving the back yard…
Our neighbours recently lost 2 cats within a couple of weeks of one another to (we think) coyotes. We spotted a coyote in the neighbourhood a couple of years ago. They had moved in about 6 months earlier from Toronto to the suburbs and she wanted to let the cats roam using a cat door they installed. A guy from down the block found the collars and remains in a matted down area of long grass in a ‘natural’ area nearby.
According to actual field studies of Canadian mammals (which I presume are of general application to the US as well), almost all of them eat whatever they can get, regardless of their official classification in regards to diet. The only exceptions noted were groundhogs (only observed eating a herbivorous diet) and polar bears (only observed eating a carnivorous diet). I have observed ostensibly herbivorous chipmunks happily munching away on grasshoppers and caterpillars which they were lucky enough to catch.
While I don’t doubt that a coyote would prefer rabbit to cat, I also doubt that many would pass up a cat here and now for a hypothetical future rabbit. I haven’t seen or heard of coyotes inside the city here, but I have seen hawks, foxes, raccoons, and skunks, as well as dogs and other cats, as predators in our neighbourhood, and we keep all of our cats indoors.
Sure, once in a while many creatures eat others. I can give you several excellent examples of Tigers or Lions becoming Man eaters, and even Humans eating other humans. But even we don’t eat (land) carnivores on a regular basis. In fact, when we do (such as some asians eating dog), there is a high "eewww’ factor among the other human “tribes”.
Common prey of the Wolf= “The most common wolf prey are white-tailed and mule deer, moose, caribou, elk, Dall and bighorn sheep, and beaver, although in selected areas wolves also take on bison and musk-ox.” (no carnivores) http://www.sdgfp.info/Wildlife/Diversity/Digest%20Articles/graywolf.htm
Common Prey of the Puma= “the puma is big enough to tackle larger prey such as domestic cattle and horses, for which it has earnt a bad reputation with livestock farmers, as well as wild deer, sheep, rodents, rabbits, hare and beaver.” (no carnivores) http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/agarman/puma.htm
Common prey of the Lion= " Lions will eat pretty much any mammal they come across, but the majority of a lion’s diet comes from medium- to large-sized herbivorous mammals. The most common prey are:
* Buffalo
* Zebra
* Wildebeest
* Gemsbok
* Hartebeest
* Warthog
* Kob
* Impala
* Gazelle (Viljoen 2003)" Again, note no carnivores, and jackals aren’t listed. http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/vecase/Behavior/Spring2004/shelburne/prey.html
Common prey of the Cheetah: “Although cheetahs usually prey on the smaller antelopes such as Thomson’s gazelles and impalas, they can catch wildebeests and zebras if hunting together. They also hunt hares and other small mammals and birds.” Again, note- no carnivores listed- nor any jackals or foxes. http://www.awf.org/wildlives/65
I am not saying that on occasion a carnivore won’t snack upon another carnivore a bit lower in the food chain. But- in general they don’t. Carnivores just plain are not listed as 'common prey" of other (land) carnivores. (The Polar bear is an odd exception, but it mostly eats seagoing creatures, and the artic is a very unusual environment).
There is a famous story about a man that went into the woods to study wolves. He set up camp and had problems with the wolves coming too near his camp. As part of his study involved how they marked their territory, he decided to try marking his territory (just around the camp). It worked. [sup]His name wasn’t Thomas Wolfe.[/sup]
How so? Cats are happy as long as they have food, something to play with, warmth and attention. My cats get all of that, and they’re safe. Not one of them has ever even tried to get outside, and we have six furballs. They’re well-fed, they have the run of the house, they’ve got beds and toys and space galore. I challenge ANYONE to say they could be any happier.
Are you saying that the preferred prey of a typical carnivore is herbivores (a.k.a., “prey animals”)? That might typically be true of large mammalian carnivores.
On the other hand, if you’re saying that it’s rare, or even uncommon, for carnivorous mammals and birds to eat other carnivores, I can bury you under a pile of conflicting evidence. You used wolves in your example. Yes, they tend to hunt whatever their mothers taught them to hunt when they were pups. They will eat whatever they have an opportunity to eat, especially if prey is scarce. Wolves regularly kill coyotes, although they only eat them if they’re quite hungry.
Great horned owls regularly eat weasels, snakes, and other species of owls. I also lost a kitten to an owl.
Foxes, bobcats, and coyotes eat domestic cats around here whenever they can catch one (which is why my cats come indoors at night). Bobcats and grey foxes can even go up a tree after the domestic cat.
Numerous species of snakes eat other snakes, and many snakes live almost exclusively on frogs and toads (which are insectivores).
Yes. Most land mammal carnivores prefer (if you prefer that word) to eat herbivores. They are the “common” prey.
It isn’t uncommon for carnivores higher up the food chain to occasionally kill or attack a carnivore lower down the chain, especially if they view them as any sort of threat or competition. But as you said- they don’t often/always eat them.
My whole point is that Coyotes in the wild would prefer to eat rodents, not cats. BUT- when you’re starving, preferences go out the window; and urban coyotes don’t act like their wild brethren, either.
What absolute nonsense. “We” as in the human species have always routinely eaten carnivores. That was made more difficult and expensive as game meat became less common and may have led to a change in dietary perceptions but even now the consumption of carnivores is perfectly normal in almost any society where game meat consumption ois routine and where consumption of carnovores isn’t actually illegal. For example a significant amount of game meat consumed by various Eskimo groups still consists primarily of bear and seal. Bear is also eaten by Indians in those places where killing them is permitted. Ferchrissakes the consumption of bear flesh amongst EuropeanAmricans was perfectly normal not 200 years ago.
Yes Dr Deth, many carnivores provoke an ‘ewww’ factor in those cultures that don’t routinely eat them. That is just as true of herbivores. I’ve seen the reaction of unacclimatised Europeans to the eating of possums or alpaca or guinea pigs too.
And yes, you provided a lot of references to carnivores that didn’t mention them eating carnivores. What you comprehensively failed to provide is any support at all to the BS claim that “in general, land carnivores don’t prey on other land carnivores”. That comment is just out and out wrong. In general ALL land carnivores prey on other land carnivores. Of course carnivores aren’t their primary food items. Basic thermodynamics ensures that could never, ever be the case. That in no way supports your BS statement that “in general, land carnivores don’t prey on other land carnivores”. Generally and specifically they DO prey on other land carnivores.
What you are saying is ignorant and incorrect. In general they do. It’s routine for almost any land carnivore to eat other land carnivores.
Quote obviously either you have not given that statement any thought, or else you are ignorant of thermodynamics. For all practical purposes the sun is the only energy input into this system. Each time energy gets converted from one form to the other the majority is lost. As a result there are around 10 times fewer carnivores on any tropic level as the consumers beneath them. Funnily enough that mandates that any generalist carnivore will be at least 10 times more likely to eat primary consumers as other carnivores. If basic thermodynamics demands that 9.10 of the prey are herbivores it should hardly surprise anyone that carnivores ain’t gonna be common prey. That in no way supports the contention that carnivores do indeed generally eat other carnivores.
And Der. Deth you still haven;t addressed what I assume is the urban myth you bought into, that pumas are more likely to attack vegetarians.
I’ll ask for a reference for this BS claim too. Please provide evidence that wolves don’t always eat weasels they catch or that coyotes don’t always eat cats or that lions don’t always eat jackals.
Can you provide any evidence for this claim. I’m calling bullshit. Please show me any evidence that the prefer rodents to cats, rather than simply finding them more abundant?
I specifically refered to the large land mammal carnivores, and I notice you didn’t address any of my examples at all.
I’m not talking about urban coyotes. A coyote can go from my house to huge tracts of government (BLM/park service) land without passing closer than 1/4 mile of another house. These are definitely “wild” animals.
Your “whole point” was based on bad information, as just about everyone else in this thread has confirmed. Carnivores (including land carnivores) eat other carnivores on a regular basis, and in some cases (e.g., the snakes I mentioned) they eat other carnivores almost exclusively.
A housecat wandering loose in the mountains near here (northeast of Yellowstone National Park) is definitely in danger of being eaten. Not just killed for territory–a wolf isn’t concerned about the territorial rights of a cat–but eaten by grey and red foxes, coyotes, wolves, bobcats, cougars, bears, great horned owls, and a variety of other critters with sharp gnashy teeth.
We weren’t talking about snakes (nor owls, nor frogs…). We were talking about Land Mammal carnivores- coyotes and such like.
Again, I have given cites for the “common prey” of several of the best known carnivores. In no case is another carnivore listed. Thus, Carnivores (land mammal) simply do not commonly prey upon other carnivores. I could give more. Carnivores simply do NOT have fellowcarnivores on their common prey list.
Blake- you claim humans eat Bear commonly, or at least they did. My Dad living in Alaska, and hunted bear for food- he said that bear during the salmon season was rancid and nearly indeible, but bear during the berry season was in high demand- which bring up my point that bears are NOT carnivores, they are omnivores. We commonly eat almost no land mammal carnivore. Pigs are omnivores also, we eat plenty of them, still. Humans have rarely raised carnivores for food animals.
You then claim that carnivores routinely eat other carnivores, then go through a line of discussion about the fatc that there are less carnivores than herbivores, and go on to admit that “ain’t gonna be common prey”- which is correct- then go on to claim that “that carnivores do indeed generally eat other carnivores.”. So which is it? Are they common prey or not? If they are not common prey, then they do not “generally” eat other carnivores. Thank you for helping me prove my point.
So far, all that has been shown to disporve my thesis is a few scattered instances where- occasionally, in rare & uncommon circumstances- a land carnivore will eat another. Which I have never disagreed with, in fact I stated as such in my first post. Still, I have shown- with cites- that (land mammal) carnivores do not COMMONLY prey upon other (land mammal) carnivores.
Here are more:
Siberian Tiger “Wild boar make up more than half of its diet. Common prey includes Sika deer, and elk.” (no CARNIVORES)
Leopard; “The leopard is a cunning, stealthy hunter, and its prey ranges from strong-scented carrion, fish, reptiles and birds to mammals such as rodents, hares, hyraxes, warthogs, antelopes, monkeys and baboons.” (no carnivores, one omnivore)
Jaguar: “The prey base of the jaguar is extensive, taking full advantage of the diversity and dense concentration of animal species found in the rainforest areas. In size its prey ranges from large domestic livestock such as cattle and horses (for which it has a poor reputation with local farmers), Marsh deer, Brocket deer, down through various species of Peccary, larger rodents such as Capybara, Paca and Agouti, to reptiles, monkeys and fish.” (no carnivores, exept perhaps lizards, which would mainly be iguana, but anyway they are not “land mammals”) http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/agarman/bco/jaguar.htm
Woverine: “The Wolverine is both a scavenger and a predator, depending on the time of year. During the summer months, Wolverines are primarily predatory, with the most common prey being marmots, ground squirrels, mice, voles, birds and insects. Eggs and berries also may be included in the summer diet. During the winter, Wolverines are primarily scavengers and rely heavily on large ungulates killed by other predators or that have died of disease or starvation. However, live American Porcupines, mice and voles may supplement their winter diet, and Wolverines have been known to kill Caribou and Moose if snow conditions are favorable or if the prey is weakened.” No carnivores. http://www.albertasource.ca/alphabet/article.php?article_id=90
Bobcat: “Their most important prey are mammals, especially rabbit and hare. Other common prey include large rodents and opossum-sized animals. Bobcat also eat larger animals such as beaver and deer. They will store carcasses for later use.
Research in the late 1970s found that white-tailed deer, rabbit, and hare are the most common items in the diet of bobcat in New York.” http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dfwmr/wildlife/wildgame/bcatinny.htm
And here is a scientific article discussing the predation of the coytote- and comparing it to the other carnivores in the system (note "Grizzly bears (U. arctos) are omnivorous and consume large quantities of vegetation and wild fruits in addition to carrion and prey. ") No mention of any of the land mammal carnivores there preying on other land mammal carnivores.
Here is another quote about the coyote "The most common prey consists of squirrels, rodents, rabbits, deer and even domestic livestock. The coyote will also eat a variety of fruit and vegetable matter. The coyote is also considered to be a scavenger due to the fact that it will eat almost anything it comes across, including spoiled meat. http://www.dto.com/hunting/species/generalprofile.jsp?speciesid=75
OK, I think I have covered most major land mammal carnivores, and even a few others. None list- and in some cases the list is long and extensive- any other land mammal carnivores. Land mammal carnivores simple do not commonly prey on others, and herbivores are their prefered prey.
Your lists that do not mention carnivores are simply not evidence that will convince anyone - we all know the aphorism. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Blake’s point about thermodynamics is a perfectly adequate explanation of why carnivores are generally not a common foodsource for other carnivores. They are simply less numerous, and each step up the food chain means fewer critters. This is basic high school biology - I can’t imagine you wish to argue it, but if you do I (or others) would be happy to find citations. Thus it would not be a successful strategy for a coyote to strictly hunt cats - there just wouldn’t be enough to sustain life. However, the fact that cat is not the primary foodstuff of coyotes does not prove, or even suggest, that coyotes are unwilling to eat them. Predation by coyotes upon housecats is common in areas where they are prevalent.
The puma claim is particularly hard to believe - though if you have evidence, I’ll second the call asking you to find it.
The arguments about humans and our diets are more easily explained in other ways as well. There tends to be strong cultural resistance to eating animals that are viewed as companions of some sort (possibly borne out of an evolutionary pragmatism - what sense does it make to eat the beast you need to pull a plow or provide milk?) - thus while dogs are eaten in some cultures, others find the practice disgusting. Rather than using tortured logic about human reluctance to eat carnivores (since, after all, dogs are a delicacy in Korea), compare with an analogous situation. Many people in the United States are absolutely disgusted by the idea of eating horses, even though it’s common practice in some places. This despite the fact that horses are herbivores. A more obvious conclusion is that either people are reluctant to eat animals that are not regularly eaten within their own societies, or else that people are horrified by the concept of eating something that’s seen as a companion rather than as prey.
People certainly don’t raise carnivores as food (and of course pigs are fed a largely vegetable diet on farms) because it’s inefficient to do so, just as it would be inefficient for a coyote to embark upon a cat-only diet. Having to raise or hunt herbivores to feed to our carnivorous livestock - especially when one considers the general rule that each step up the food chain has a tenth the biomass of the previous step - would be a process so costly and difficult that it would be impossible for it to form an ordinary part of our diet.
Again, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially when reasons why carnivores are not a dietary mainstay have already been provided, and are matters of very basic biology.
Perhaps you think so, but unless you have found a way not only to read a cat’s mind but also to quantify something as abstract as happiness, it certainly doesn’t make any sense for you to make a ridiculous claim like this in GQ. I’m not saying it’s ridiculous to suggest that cats like being outdoors - just that it’s ridiculous to imply that you can precisely quantify cat emotions, and further to imply that it’s a matter of fact (since we’re not in IMHO.) For the record, my cats seem quite satisfied to stay inside.
No, we weren’t. You said, in post #5, “in general, land carnivores don’t prey on other land carnivores.” You didn’t say a word about mammals until you got buried in counterexamples.
No, you haven’t. You have shown–with cites–that they do commonly prey on herbivores.
You can’t prove your negative assertion (“land carnivores don’t eat other land carnivores”) by giving examples of carnivores eating herbivores (“see–wolves eat elk”), but we can disprove it by giving counterexamples (owls eating weasels, snakes eating frogs…). I gave you several counterexamples, and then you changed the basic premise.
Here. Let me shoot you down again using only mammals. I’ve quoted this material directly from www.enature.com, and much of it is taken almost verbatim from Audubon Society field guides (the URLs are long and ugly but a quick search will get you to the quotes text for full context). Names of carnivores are set in bold.
BOBCAT
Note that the birds and reptiles are often predators.
COYOTE
Note that the birds and “other small mammals” are often predators.
LONG-TAILED WEASEL
RIVER OTTER
Most of its prey is fish. Most of the fish it eats are carnivores.
I could go on, but since one counterexample is sufficient to dispute what you said, there’s no need to–especially since the bobcat example directly addresses the OP’s concern about domestic cats.
I’ve never heard of any cat, indoor, outdoor, or both, that lived to 24 years. I’ve lived with many cats, all of them allowed outdoors whenever they want, and most of them have lived to about 12 (one recently died at the age of 18, and two others are currently 16 and 14). Even at that age, most of them have died from various health problems, not from predation, cars, or other outdoor hazards. And judging from how much effort they devote to getting outside, they certainly prefer to be free of the house, though it’s of course impossible to quantify just how much they prefer it.
On the topic of carnivore-carnivore predation in general, certainly the primary reason it’s so rare is that carnivores are scarcer than herbivores. A predator which truly had no preference would be expected to eat ten times as many herbivores as carnivores, in the wild, just based on that. But wouldn’t herbivores also generally be easier prey? Carnivores tend to be much better armed than herbivores, and while you eat what you can, most predators would prefer to eat something unlikely to seriously injure them. I know that any predator which tried to eat our cats, for instance, would be likely to end up with a badly cut face.
I think if I peed in our backyard I’d scare off my wife.
For the record, we have three cats who stay indoors. Sometimes we take them for walks, something I’ve expounded upon on this Board before. (They don’t wear leashes or anything)
Some of our neighbors have cats. We do have coyotes, even here in Massachusetts, close to Boston. I’ve seen hem. AFAIK, they haven’t eaten the neighbor’s cats, although one did disappear many years ago.
If your wife is gung-ho about trying human urine as a coyote-deterrent, you might suggest that she supply it herself.
If she’s shy about going outside, suggest that she use a container indoors.
To go into the Puma vegatarian attack thing would be a hijack, so I won’t be drawn into it. Start another thread, why don’t you?
**
Chronos**- note that my cite listing common prey of the Bobcat disagrees with yours.
And again- snakes, fish, frogs and such are outside the question- none are mammals. I never changed the premise, we were only talking about land mammal predators. This thread is not about the Great White Shark- it is about coyotes.
[sup]His name wasn’t Thomas Wolfe.[/sup]
to eat herbivores. They are the “common” prey.