Oops, not Chronos- InvisibleWombat.
I think there are several reasons, and Chronos brings up an excellent one- the fact that carnivores are better armed than herbivores, by-and-large. Another reason may be taste- meateaters don’t taste as good as herbivores. Of course- they are also far less common to start with.
No, it doesn’t. Yours just doesn’t provide as complete a listing (and if you need more bobcat citations, I can get plenty more). Let me make my point very concisely here:
Stating that a carnivore eats herbivores does not in any way imply that said carnivore doesn’t eat other carnivores as well.
You haven’t provided one single cite yet that supports your statement. Find something that says carnivores don’t eat other carnivores, not something that says coyotes eat rabbits.
No, no, no! Read your own post, for goodness’ sake. I referenced it by post number, and quoted it inline. Here, let me put it in a big box for you:
Note that you didn’t say “mammals” anywhere in that post. In fact, you didn’t say “predators,” which means carrion-eating carnivores are included, which provides me another dozen counterexamples.
All that aside, I gave you several citations for land mammal predators that eat other predators. Will you now concede the point, or are you going to try to change the target again?
This started out with just peeing in the yard. Me thinks it has turned into a peeing on each other.
In fact, my cite is as complete as yours.
Here are others: "The bobcat is a carnivore and eats a wide variety of small mammals like woodchucks, rabbits, skunks, raccoons, moles and squirrels. It also eats birds and reptiles. One of the most common prey of the bobcat is the cotton-tail rabbit. Occasionally the bobcat will kill larger prey like deer.
http://www.nhptv.org/natureworks/bobcat.htm
2 omnivores, and one insectivore, rest herbivores.
“The bobcat’s diet consist of rabbits, squirrels, mice, gophers,rats, and fish” No carnivores.
http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/bobcat.htm
“The bobcat like all lynx has a great liking for hare and rabbit, which form a major part of the diet. However, unlike the canadian lynx, which almost exclusively hunts the snowshoe hare, the bobcat will commonly switch prey species when its preferred source of food is unavailable. Males will hunt larger prey such as deer in the winter months when other prey is scarce. Bobcats also prey on other small mammals, such as squirrels and chipmunk, rodents and birds.” No carnivores.
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/agarman/bco/bobcat.htm
And here’s the official gov’t site: “Cottontail rabbits appear to be the principal prey of bobcats throughout
bobcat’s range [6,7,38]. Primary exceptions occur from Minnesota to New
England, where white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) and snowshoe
hare (Lepus americanus) increase in importance [6].
Bobcats in the Southeast rely heavily on two species, eastern
cottontails (Sylvilagus floridanus) and cotton rats, for food throughout
the year [6]. Cotton rats may be more important than eastern
cottontails from Florida to Louisiana. In the interior highlands of
Arkansas, eastern fox squirrels (Sciurus niger) and eastern gray
squirrels (S. carolinensis) are important foods. In the mountains of
eastern Tennessee and western North Carolina, the woodland vole
(Microtus pinetorum) and various species of birds are important bobcat
prey [6]. In the West rodents, especially woodrats (Neotoma spp.), are
often eaten [6,7].” Note that is a sceintific cite, with footnotes and everything. Something you haven’t provided.
( I think somebody’s going to have to fix the coding on that one)
It’s true that “stating that a carnivore eats herbivores does not in any way imply that said carnivore doesn’t eat other carnivores as well.” But every cite I have listed gives that carnivores “common” prey. That’s how you do it in Zoology land- you list what it does prey on, not what it doesn’t. (Based upon that burden of proof, I can’t prove that Bobcats don’t eat Elephants, either :rolleyes: ) Not their “occasional” or “odd” or “sometimes” prey. And, that is what I stated- that carnivores do not **COMMONLY **prey on other carnivores. So far, I have given 15 cites, all listing various carnivores COMMON prey- and in no case has a carnivore been listed as **COMMON **prey. In fact- your cite doesn’t list any carnivores as common either- it says “*mostly *on the Snowshoe Hare (in the northern U.S.) and cottontails (in the eastern U.S.), but also on mice, squirrels, Woodchucks, Virginia Opossums, moles, shrews, Common Raccoons, foxes, domestic cats, birds, reptiles, Common Porcupines, and even skunks.” Emphasis mine.
Yep, you’re right- in my first post I didn’t list “Land mammal”- because I thought it was unnessary as we were talking about land mammals, not the Great White Shark or Tyranosaurus Rex. When it became clear that you were changing the subject, I clarified what I was talking about. The OP is about LAND MAMMALS, that was the target all along. Switching the subject to the Great White Shark or frogs is a hijack. All along- we were talking about Land mammals; coyotes and cats. Not lizards or fish. And, yes, I mean "predators’ which could be apparent from the word “prey” as opposed to “eat”.
I’ll state it again- (land mammal) carnivores do not COMMONLY prey upon other (land mammal) carnivores. OK?
I have been thinking about it, and it is true, peeing in the yard would only help if the cats stay in the yard. I recommend peeing directly on the cats.
Dr. Deth this is getting ridiculous. It seems quote clear by this that you are talking shit on multiple points with no idea what you are talking about. You’re just making this up. It’s basic ignorant crap.
Carnivores do indeed generally prey on other carnovores. Your weaseling attempts at saying that carnivoresmostly eat herbivores is not in any way suportive of your claim about what they DON"T[eat. I’ve asked you multiple times for refernces to suport your claim and you’ve been able to supply. Either cire or get off the pot man.
Pumas are clearly not more likely to attack vegetaians. You are simply propagating an urban legend in that one. Nice behaviour on aboard dedicated to fighting ignorance.
Humans do and always have commonly eaten carnivores. And yes, bears are carnivores. they belong to the order carnivora and eat meat. That makes them carnivores. You yourself said they were carnivores. In attempting to ‘prove’ that carivores don;t commonly eat carnivores you said “Pumas don’t hunt wolves, nor do bear hunt either” You yourself believe that bears are carnivores. And I notice you don’t even attempt to address the issue of non-Europeans eating carnivores.
Coyotes do NOT prefer rodents to cats. They exhibit nbo such prefernce at all.
Dr. Deth since you can provide no written support at all for these claims can I ask on what basis you make them? What are your qualifications and experience tht lead you to these clearly erroneous conclusions?
No it;s not OK… It’s ignoant crap without an iota of basis in fact or reality.
Most, probbaly all, land mammal carnivores species COMMONLY prey on other (land mammal) carnivores.
I’m sitting here picturing ole Wily E being hungry and looking to his left and seeing a nice little field mouse weighing in at what 8 oz? He looks to his right and spys the local house cat tipping the scales at 20 lbs. Both of these meals are equa-distant. To his left is a light snack, to his right a meal, maybe two.
Which way do you think he is going to attack? My money is on bye bye kitty.
I have given you 13 cites. That’s 9 more than you have. And, several of my cites are from scientific papers, fully footnoted and everything.
No, I can’t show you a cite that says “carnivores don’t prey on other carnivores”. That’s because no one lists what animals don’t eat- they list what they DO eat. It’s also impossible to prove a negative. I can give you 1000 cites that won’t list “grizzly bear” on the list of common prey for the bobcat. So- then you say “well, that doesn’t PROVE the bobcat doesn’t kill and eat grizzlys”. :rolleyes: Well, Blake- that’s not the way Zoology or logic works- Zoologists list what an animal does eat, not what it doesn’t eat. You can’t prove a negative. I can’t prove that coyotes don’t prey on the Great Blue Whale either. :rolleyes:
Bears are indeed in the Order Carnivore. But they are Omniverous.
Cites:"Black bears, polar bear and grizzly bears are members of the carnivora order, but they are omnivores.Most of the black bear’s diet consists of plants. In the summer months it eats grasses, herbs, sedges, fruits, berries and nuts. It also eats insects. Black bears don’t hunt for meat, but if they happen to come across carrion (a dead animal) they will eat it.
http://www.nhptv.org/natureworks/nwep10b.htm
“Throughout their ranges in North America, black bears consume primarily grasses and forbs in spring, soft mast in the form of shrub and tree-borne fruits in summer, and a mixture of hard and soft mast in fall. However, the availability of different food types varies regionally. Only a small portion of the diet of bears consists of animal matter, and then primarily in the form of colonial insects and beetles. Most vertebrates are consumed in the form of carrion. Black bears are not active predators and feed on vertebrates only if the opportunity exists.”
“Diet:* Omnivore*, eats fruit, nuts, acorns, insects, succulent greens, and meat.”
"The black bear, like all bears, is a predator, and an omnivore. "
http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/american_black-bear_taiga.htm
“Although classified as a carnivore, the black bear is a true omnivore, opportunistically feeding on a wide range of food items. Analysis of scat (bear droppings) shows that vegetable material almost always comprises over half the bear’s diet, with insects and other animals comprising a small percentage. In particular, fresh leaves, fruits, berries, nuts, roots, and tubers are favorite foods seasonally, with insects and small mammals eaten when the opportunity arises.”
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/nature/wild/vertebrate/mammals/bbear.htm
“A number of the Carnivora are omnivores though, particularly the Bears…”
“carnivores are animals that eat a diet consisting only of meat.
Also, the word could refer to the mammals of the Order Carnivora, many (but not all) of which fit the first definition. Bears are an example of members of Carnivora that are not true carnivores.”
Enough? That’s now 20 or so cites.
Personal insults don’t get you very far in GD. Cites and facts do.
Blake, please note that you are in GQ and you may not make such statements in GQ.
Take it to the Pit if you cannot be civil.
-xash
General Questions Moderator
Getting back to the original topic, can coyotes even distinguish human urine from urine of other species, including cats? No doubt they can tell when another coyote has marked its territory, and may even be able to distinguish canine urine from other forms of urine, but knowing the scent of human urine does not seem like something that would be instinctive for a coyote and could not be learned unless it watched a human urinate outside and then ran up and smelled it.
Look guys
That coyote is going to eat the critter that is easiest to catch.
Also which critter is going to hurt the most when it fights back.
That cat is going to bite back.The field mouse might get in a bite or 2 but nothing like how the cat will fight back.
You’ve all seen a cat back off a dog with one swipe of its claws.
Well that coyote is just a dog with no upbringing.
Yeah they eat cats and anything else that they can kill but they are lazy will take the easiest critter to kill without getting hurt themselves.
That coyote will recognize the human urine as from a critter to avoid.
The question is really will it recognize it as a territory marker.
As an old trapper I simply don’t know but suspect it will.
How would it know it’s from a critter to avoid? Unless it knows specifically the urine is from a human, I see no way it could know if it came from a large carnivore, a small herbivore, etc. Maybe urine from carnivores have a different scent than that of herbivores, and it can kind of tell the size by the amount of urine (although that seems ineffective since the urine would fade away over time), but I’d sure like to know how it would know that a human (or even just a large carnivore/omnivore) peed on the tree and not just a cat, squirrel, etc.
I think it’s clear that DrDeth is simply going to ignore all evidence that doesn’t support his point, Blake. Re-reading the thread shows that nobody (including the OP and DrDeth himself) restricted comments to mammals until he realized that his original statement (which I’ve quoted to him twice already) was incorrect. Now he’s trying to change his intent again by eliminating insectivores (which are clearly carnivores) and river otters (which eat primarily carnivorous fish).
There are far more herbivores than carnivores in any given land ecosystem. An opportunistic hunter like a bobcat or coyote will encounter a lot more rabbits than housecats or skunks, so it will eat what it gets. In no way does this give credence to the claim that they won’t generally eat carnivores. It just says they don’t get as many opportunities.
DrDeth, we’ve given you numerous examples of land carnivores that eat other meat eaters (including “pure” carnivores, omnivores, carrion-eaters, insectivores, and more). You have yet to provide evidence of one single solitary study that states that a land carnivore shows any preference whatsoever for herbivores when given the opportunity to eat either one.
Your attempts to weasel out of it aren’t working. Weasel? Oh, yeah, they’re yet another land mammal predators which regularly eat other land mammal predators (shrews, for example).
It does. And territorial animals commonly use urine as a marker, and recognize their own species. A male mountain lion can recognize mountain lion urine, and tell whether it comes from another male (“my turf–keep out”) or a female (“gotta go find her”).
I believe that dogs can not only recognize dog urine, but tell which individual it came from, hence the fire-hydrant-sniffing routine (“hey, Fido was here this morning!”).
Cause its mama said so.
The OP is about Coyotes eating housecats. Both Land mammals. It isn’t about Fluffy being eaten by the Great White Shark. You both, having lost your point quite some time ago, insist on trying to hijack the thread. I won’t go there. It’s rude.
Yes, indeed- there are more herbivores than carnivores- which is one of the reasons why carnivores don’t commonly prey on them. Chronos gave another good reason- carnivores are better armed. Even though a porcupine is slow, stupid and tasty, most carnivores avoid them- too much danger involved in getting a good meal.
There are no studies that try and prove a negative. They can’t be done, and that’s simply not the way Zoology works. I do have a BS in Zoology you know. Zoologists list prey that the animal does prey on, not animals it doesn’t. I won’t be able to find a cite that says “the bobcat does NOT prey on the grizzly bear, the Bison, the…” :rolleyes: And- it’s NOT because the Bobcat does. :dubious: Insistance that I try and “prove the negative” is a logical fallacy.
I have given you 20 cites. I have given you cites which are footnoted scientific cites amoung them. None list any carnivores as common prey of another carnivore.
Yes, you have ONE cite which shows the Bobcat are having a couple carnivores on it’s list of prey. But even there, the author is careful to distinquish them as just “also”. And, I have given 6 cites to your one which show the bobcat is considered by most Zoologists and sources not to commonly prey on other carnivores. Note you still have one cite to my 20. I will happily list another 20.
You yourself have stated that there aren’t that many carnivores; thus there aren’t enough for them to be common, and thus you yourself have proven that carnivores can’t be common prey. However, that’s not the major reason, I would guess, although it certainly IS a reason.
Don’t read too much into my argument. We’ve yet to establish that coyotes do prefer rabbits to housecats. Certainly, they will eat housecats if the opportunity presents itself. Blake and others have produced several cites to that effect, and to the effect that other carnivores also eat carnivores when given the chance. You have produced many cites, of which zero counter that claim. None of your cites anywhere says that carnivores make any effort to avoid eating other carnivores.
Now, it may be that carnivores do have some bias against eating other carnivores (how big this bias is, or even if it exists at all, I do not know). If that is the case, then the sharper claws on carnivorous potential prey may be one reason. But we haven’t yet established that it is the case.
Well some carnivores do have a bias against eating other carnivorous mammals, namely myself. It could be argued that I’m an omnivore, but I have trouble digesting things that aren’t meat or milk, (even though they taste good, so I eat them).
If I had to hunt for my food, I wouldn’t even consider felines or canines.