Well, like I said- in Zoology they list what an animal does eat, not what it doesn’t. I can’t prove Bobcats don’t prey on Grizzlies, either.
They have produced one cite, not many, and that one cite does claim that Bobcats eat foxes and cats 'also".
I have no doubt at all that the urban coyote will scarf a housecat. They have limited prey choices- few rabbits.
However, note this scientific article- which extensively discusses predator/prey and all the major predators of N.America. no-where is preadtion upon other predators mentioned. This article covers coyote preadtion extensively. http://texnat.tamu.edu/symposia/coyote/p16.htm
Here’s another scientific article that discuses general predator behavior, including “The subtleties in predator-prey systems are only beginning to emerge. Thirty years ago, who would have thought that prey animals not only detect the urine and feces of the carnivores that prey on them but specifically identify them (Muller-Schwarze 1972; Steinberg 1977; Sullivan 1986; Sullivan et al. 1990).” This answer the question raised about if urine COULD work. It could. (Doesn’t mean it will, but it COULD). http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/carncon/maintext.htm
Ah, is finally an article- a scientific article that says "Interspecific interactions can result in the death of a competing predator, or merely the exclusion of the subordinate species. Although aggressive interactions occur, most predators avoid contact." That says that predators tend to avoid each other, thus they don’t hunt each other. It does mention that predators do occasionaly kill another predator near a kill site, defending their kill, as I said. It does NOT mention predators hunting others for food. http://texnat.tamu.edu/symposia/coyote/p6.htm
Here is another interesting article. It lists the stomach contents of thousands and thousands of studies of every land mammal carnivore in N.America- those living near civilization, note. In no case are any other predators listed as a part of the stomach contents found. No significant % of coyotes were found with domestic cat, for example. http://www.stevesrealfood.com/research/foodhabits.html
Oh, good grief. They’re both predators. They’re both mammals. They’re both vertebrates. They’re both fuzzy. They’re both larger than a typical brick. I didn’t assume that the OP just refered to creatures larger than a typical brick, did I? You’re being ridiculous.
You’re not even reading my posts, are you? You’re just picking out the bobcats when I also mentioned river otters, weasels, coyotes, and others (which you won’t accept because you redefined the original OP to be mammals only.
Look, if you have a degree in biology, you must have studied some logic. You must know that you can’t prove a negative through examples (as you stated), although it’s easy to do a study where you provide a carnivore with other critters as potential prey. If it eats the herbivores and ignores the carnivores, your thesis is supported. If it eats the carnivores when there are herbivores present, your thesis is disproved. You haven’t cited any such study.
This argument is pointless. Every time we make an argument, you either change your original thesis, pretend that the argument didn’t get made (yeah, I said what about the river otters?), or use fallacious arguments to try and get around it.
Your statement was disproved. Several times (need I mention river otters again?). Give it up.
And, if we need to talk about what the Op was about- it was about whether or not urine would scare off a predator. Clearly, this is about marking territory with urine, not fish peeing in the river.
Yes. My point has always been to asnwer the OP, not go off on hijacks.
Now if your argument (which has very little to do with the OP) is that some predators (even “land mammal”) commonly eat fish, frogs, reptiles and such like-I conceded that some time ago. They do. Not a big suprise to anyone, I think.
My point is that land mammal carnivores do not COMMONLY prey upon other land mammal carnivores. Do you dispute this? Have you read my now some 25 cites and links? Especially this one: “Interspecific interactions can result in the death of a competing predator, or merely the exclusion of the subordinate species. Although aggressive interactions occur, most predators avoid contact.” That says that predators tend to avoid each other, thus they don’t hunt each other. http://texnat.tamu.edu/symposia/coyote/p6.ht
I really don’t think you can actually read those cites and still maintain that (land mammal) carnivores COMMONLY prey upon other (land mammal) carnivores.
Thisis germane to the OP, where whether or not Coyotes would COMMONLY prey upon similar creatures to housecats in the wild is part of the answer. In other words- would a wild coyote commonly include a bobcat or similar other fellow carnivore in his diet? The answer is no, according to my cites. However, also according to my cites- the urban coyote acts differently, so maybe it does eat cats. Now, would the urine of a predator (even though Man is a omnivore, yes) scare off a “fellow carnivore” in the wild? The answer appears to be yes or maybe, with many caveats. Thus- to get back to the OP- COULD human urine “scare off” a coyote? That’s the OP, and that’s what I am attempting to answer, not go off on any hijacks. It would appear that a coyote would certainly notice human urine, especially in the wild, and would* tend* to avoid areas marked with it. But would that work on an urban coyotes, so much more used to human smell? There- I am stumped. But the pee is free, so- why not?
If you whole point is that- “ha ha you didn’t say “land mammal” in your first post and I proved to you that carnivores do eat other non-land mammal carnivores” :rolleyes: -Then, I cheerfully concede. Cherish it. :rolleyes: Now, can we get back to the OP?
Okay, DrDeth, you’ve pulled me back for one last response.
YES, I dispute even your heavily-modified and custom-tailored claim. You’ve completely backed off of what you actually said in post 5, but I’ve even shot down your current point. I’ve offered evidence to support my position, not the least of which is the Audubon Society Field Guide to North American Mammals (page 575 of my edition mentions weasels eating shrews and even other weasels, for example).
Every time you make a statement that gets disproved, you disavow that statement and try to get back to the OP (maybe you should have been a politician instead of a scientist).
You want to get back to the OP? Fine. Coyotes eat housecats. And you can’t weasel out of it by saying “urban coyotes are different.” The county I live in has an average density of three dwellings per square mile and is adjascent to a national park, an Indian reservation, and two national forests. This ain’t urban, and coyotes eat housecats.
Save your cute little rolleye icons. We’ve proved far more than we needed to, and you have no response except to point out some other herbivore that gets eaten by a carnivore. The coyote part of the OP’s been answered, and the answer is that coyotes (land mammal carnivores) eat housecats (land mammal carnivores).
Oh, and before you get funny- prove that coyotes COMMONLY eat housecats.
Here- they dissected THOUSANDS of coyotes- and no cat remains were listed amoung that found.“Here is another interesting article. It lists the stomach contents of thousands and thousands of studies of every land mammal carnivore in N.America- those living near civilization, note. In no case are any other predators listed as a part of the stomach contents found. No significant % of coyotes were found with domestic cat, for example.” http://www.stevesrealfood.com/research/foodhabits.html
I am willing to concede that occasionally an Urban coyote will attack, and even eat an occasional housecat. However, that’s not the only point that needs to be studies here. You clearly don’t know much about Zoological studies.
Here’s what we need to know (and what I have been trying to find out):
Do (land mammal) carnivores commonly prey on other (land mammal) carnivores? That is would a wild coyote prey upon a wild cat? (The answer is no, according to my cites)
Are uban coyotes different from their wild cousins in their eating habits? That is-do urban coyotes commonly eat housecats? Is there a real significant danger? (no statistical data, just ancedotal)
Do carnivores in general- and coyotes in particular- avoid the “marking” of territory by other carnivores? (I have found the answer seems to be “yes”, according to my research and cites)
Do humans count as a 'carnivore" for an area a coyote or carnivore will avoid? (no data, but in the wild, animals do avoid humans)
If 3 & 4 are generally “yes” will an urbanized coyote still respect and avoid the same as his more wild cousin? (no data)
Questions such as “do river otters eat fish” are not relevant. I never stated they didn’t nor do I care for the purposes of this OP. (I happen to know that they do, but…) I have never changed my purpose- to answer the Op’s question. You seem determined to hijack the thread with statements about river otters and their piscine diets. I have never been talking about anything BUT land mammal carnivores in general. Sure, it appears you were confused by my statement in my first post- which is why I have repeatly clarified myself.
Can we get back to the OP now? Do you have any facts to help the OP? Any real cites about coyotes or carnivore territory marking?
You’ve ignored every fact I’ve posted, DrDeth, and I have better things to do than present evidence to someone who either doesn’t want to see it or doesn’t understand it. I’m outta here.
I know it’s an old thread, but I just stumbled upon the following while doing a journal search, and was struck by how relevant it was. It certainly proves once and for all that predators commonly prey on other predators.
The Ecology and Evolution of Intraguild Predation: Potential Competitors That Eat Each Other
Gary A. Polk: Christopher A. Myers Robert D. Holt
Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics. Vol. 20. (1989), pp. 297-330
Just noticed that this is just plain untrue. The page you link to quite clearly lists shrews and opposums as dietary items.
Aside from that the there are numeorus references to “domestic livestock”, “small mammals”, “livestock”, “other mammals” and so forth that give no indictaion of what the animals are.
The answer is an inarguable “Yes” accoridng to my cite from a real zoologist, not someone shilling overpriced dogmeat.
Would have been more convincing had you been able to share them with us.
You just spent the last 6 posts tellieng everyone that opossums, shrews and bears aren’t carnivores for the puproses of this discussion. Yet now you want to include humans as carnivores? :dubious:
No one mentioned the obvious fix. You want pee to keep the coyotes away from the cats. The cats won’t stay in the area protected by the pee. Answer: pee on the cats.
Shrews are Insectivores. Opossums are Omnivores. And- unless you have been raised on a REALLY strange farm, there are no mammals that can be called “predators” that are raised as “livestock”. I guess it is possible that “other mammals” or “small mammals” could indeed include a true mammalian carnivore, but my statement was “In no case are any other predators listed as a part of the stomach contents found.” not “none of these could possibly be a predator”. Of the identified mammals, not one is a carnivore. Sure, coyotes are known for being “Eatus Anythingus” so I don’t doubt that they do scarf an occasional fellow carnivore. But as this study clearly shows, none such are a significant part of their diet.
Did, some half-dozen times. Really, you should read other dudes cites and posts.
Nope, didn’t say that. Here’s what I said “4. Do humans count as a 'carnivore” for an area a coyote or carnivore will avoid? (no data, but in the wild, animals do avoid humans)" Notice the little thing called a “question mark” and the qualifing of the term carnivore as " Do humans count as a “carnivore” for an area a coyote or carnivore will avoid? " Note the quotes, also.
Good cite, however, Blake. Too bad you ruined it by trying to put words in my mouth, misinterpreting what I said, and in general, not trying to help the eradication of Ignorance. Your cite disagrees with mine. But still and all- after dissecting thousands of coyotes, there were no cat remains identified. And still, your cite only helps answer part of question 1. Let’s try and fight Ignorance by getting real answers to all the questions, hmm?
I still don’t know if “peeing in the backyard” will keep coyotes away*, and this last exchange didn’t move the answer forward any, so I am not sure what use it was to ressurect a very old & dead thread, unless it was to try and score “points”. :rolleyes:
*My WAG is that it will do some good until & when the Coyotes get used to it.
The obvious rhetorical question to answer the OP’s dilemma is “What will it hurt to pee in the backyard?” And if the OP is unable to whiz out in public do to shyness, just flag down a a neighbor boy and tell them you’ll give them a buck a week to whizz in your garden. You’ll have to plant rain forest plants to handle the resulting irrigation. Nothing boys like better than peeing outside.
Are you trying to claim that shrews and opossums are not predators? If so please provide a reference for such an extraordinary claim.
We all know that shrews are insectivores and opossums are omnivores. But foxes, coyotes and bears are also insectivores and omnivores and are nonetheless predators. Shrews are also predators and opossums are also predators.
I look forward to your references which state that opossums and shrews are not predators given that I have provided highly reputable references stating that they are predators. And please, we don’t want references saying that they are omnivores or insectivores. We all know that just as we know that bears and coyotes are omnivores. We want references for your outrageous claim that opossums and shrews are not predators.
live·stock [ l v st k ]
n.
Domestic animals, such as cattle or horses, raised for home use or for profit, especially on a farm.
By the standard definition cats and dogs, being domestic animals raised for home use, qualify as livestock. Now if you have evidence that the authors of those papers used nay other definition then by all means present it. Better yet, present evidence of what classification cats or dogs would have been classified under. But if you cannot then we must concede that it is possible that the category ‘livestock’ includes cats and dogs.
And that statement is untrue. I have provided references proving that both opossums and shrews are predators, and both opossums and shrews are listed as part of the stomach contents.
Please provide a reference for your claim that shrews and opossums are not carnivores since actual zoologists state clearly that they are.
But no one in this thread has been arguing that they are or even could be a significant part of the diet. What we have been taking exception to is your obviously erroneous claims that coyotes prefer not to eat cats and that in general, land carnivores don’t prey on other land carnivores. The first claim is baseless. The second is provably untrue.
Humour me and post these references indicating that coyotes in particular- avoid the “marking” of territory by other carnivores once more.
In that case I have no idea what point you are trying to make. You seem to be saying here that you disbelieve that humans are carnivores yet you are simultaneously arguing that coyotes avoid human urine because we are carnivores.
Dr. Deth are humans carnivores or not according to you?
If we are carnivores then why did you spend so much time arguing that opossums and bears are not carnivores?
If we are not carnivores what is the relevance of whether carnivores avoid other carnivores?
What words did I put in our mouth? You said “Not their first choice mind you- in general, land carnivores don’t prey on other land carnivores” My reference states that “IGP on smaller predators is ubiquitous” in most land ecosystems. One of those statements can’t be true. Either IGP is ubiquitous in land ecosystems or else land carnivores generally don’t prey on other carnivores.
At the moment the only reference says that you are wrong, and that many carnivorous mammals readily prey on other carnivores.
No, it doesn’t. None of your ‘cites’ make any mention of the readiness with which carnivores prey on carnivores.
Let’s try to fight ignorance by not stating nonsense like “in general, land carnivores don’t prey on other land carnivores” when we know in fact that predation of land carnivores by other land carnivore sis ubiquitous
The point was to demonstrate that scientists have examined the evidence concerning the generality of land carnivores preying on land carnivores. They concluded that it was ubiquitous. Ergo your statement that in general it doesn’t occur is ignorant and untrue. That was the point.
Something can not be both ubiquitous and generally non-occurring.
Similarly your statement that no predators were found was ignorant and untrue. Both shrews and opossums are predators (I provided highly reputable references to this above, and will provide many more if you request).
The point was to fight ignorance. The statements posted in this thread were ignorant and conflicted with scientific knowledge. Demonstrating that with references was justification enough. We don’t just let urban legends and misinformation slip through around here because someone posted them in an attempt to answer the original question.
Just because someone genuinely believed that predation by land predators on land predators wasn’t ubiquitous doesn’t make such a belief any less ignorant. Just because someone genuinely believed that shrews and opossums aren’t; carnivores doesn’t make the claim any less ignorant. Just because someone genuinely believed that shrews and opossums are not predators doesn’t make the claim any less ignorant.
I wouldn’t go so far as to classify dogs and cats as livestock, Blake. If we’re going to count any animal raised for profit on a ranch or farm (a good definition, I think), then DrDeth is simply going to have to accept alligator farms, mink ranches, fox ranches, and so forth. Animals don’t have to be raised as food to be livestock (although we certainly do eat alligators).
