People don't use turn signals because...

[Kevbo]

@Bearflag70

Those taking a hard line on turn signal use also never speed? Not even a little? Ever?.

Your question implies that this might somehow be related to turn signal use…Ah, we see the problem. Those of us that use our signals religiously are doing so for the convenience and safety of their fellow road users. We’d do it regardless the law. To my knowledge, no LEO in the state of New Mexico has ever enforced (and only rarely obeyed) this part of the traffic code, it is de-facto not be a legal requirement, yet a few of us continue to use our turn signals. It is a way to make driving a more pleasant and safer experience for everyone else. Requires almost zero effort, and less thought than considering if it is really needed THIS time.

It isn’t the fact that you are breaking the law that pisses me off. It is the fact that 50 to 100 times per day, I have to wait extra seconds to determine what intentions you and those of your self absorbed ilk have in store for the rest of us.

If it were only the signaling, this anti-social behavior wouldn’t draw so much fire. Failing to signal, though, is just one symptom of an all too common pattern of sloppy assed driving. Mostly it indicates an inability, or unwillingness, to plan ahead, as well as a lack of interest in continually improving ones driving. That some drivers are actually taking pride in sub-par performance is truly pathetic.

Oh, and to answer the query I quoted: I speed whenever it is safer for me and other traffic that I do so than to drive at or below the posted limit. It hurts me, the person that hit me, and everyone stuck in the resulting traffic jam if I get rear-ended because I am unwilling to drive at the 15 over the limit that traffic is moving.

Oh yeah: When people speed up when you signal a lane change, it leaves a decent sized hole behind them that you can move into. If someone is that much of an asshole, I don’t want them tailgating me anyway. I’ve driven plenty in Denver, Phoenix, LA, and the SF bay area, and honestly have never found it to be a problem at all. I have not driven in the Boston area, but am given to understand that I don’t know shit about driving in traffic until I have.

I’ve also driven on Autobahns in Germany and Austria, and know first hand what a pleasant and efficient experience driving can be when all the traffic knows and obeys all the laws. It only takes less than 2% assholes to screw it up for everyone, though, and with something like 20-25% on the road in the US, I am not likely to see enough change to make any significant difference in my lifetime. So carry on being part of the problem…there is more than enough other ignorance in this world to be fought without fixing your lame assed driving.

[Dante]

@Bearflag70

Dangerous. Illegal. Another moronic cunt. Welcome.

I can only expect others will provide you the same level of vitriol as I have received.

Do you find it hard to type with those nails in your wrists?

[Anomalous_Reading]

@Q.E.D.

You know what they call a soldier who thinks about the situation instead of instinctively following his training?

They don’t. Instead they call his next-of-kin.

I’m not going to get into a strawman argument with the resident curmudgeon. I will, however, concede you made me smile…

In short: My version of a thinker is someone who thinks things through - to some degree - before they happen. As in, how to keep control of a car while on ice, even sudden ice. Someone who knows how to get out of a fishtail when cut off - if they even let it get that far. Someone who is paying attention to the road instead of yapping on their cell phone…

All that to say, someone with intellect and mentally present - not the falsehood you threw up for points.

If you want to refute me, that’s fine. But I don’t plan to reply… reference the first paragraph for why…

[Frylock]

@Anomalous Reading

All that to say, someone with intellect and mentally present

But no one has denied the importance of mental presence. Rather, what is at issue is the question what mental presence amounts to.

It would be ridiculous to say that I should be, so to speak, “mentally present” to the color of the sky as part of the act of driving. That would be to include irrelevant information in my decision making process, and it would be to incur unnecessary risk of danger.

What some on this thread are saying is that being “mentally present” to the presence or absence of other cars and pedestrians at an intersection (as relevant to the question of whether to signal*) is like this–it is to include irrelevant information into the decision making process. One should reflexively ignore apparent presence or lack of other cars when it comes to signalling just as one should reflexively ignore the color of the sky.

-FrL-

*There are, of course, plenty of situations in which the presence or lack of cars at an intersection should leap into the forefront of one’s mind. It’s just that deciding whether or not to signal isn’t one of those situations.

[Q.E.D]

@Anomalous Reading

I’My version of a thinker is someone who thinks things through - to some degree - before they happen. As in, how to keep control of a car while on ice, even sudden ice.

But, that’s exactly the sort of thing I’m talking about. You can’t think your way out of that kind of thing, generally speaking. Most people do exactly the wrong thing when they hit ice unexpectedly for the first time; often, even in the face of having been taught what to do. It’s not automatic, and its largely counterintuitive–most folks’ automatic reaction to getting in trouble on the road is to hit the brakes. Most people need at least some degree of experience to handle it correctly.

In any case, why shouldn’t turn signal use be automatic and unthinking? There’s zero penalty for using them when unnecessary, but a potential world of hurt for not using them when you should have.

[Contrapuntal]

@Bobotheoptimist

I don’t signal the rest of the time just to piss off people like the OP.

Assuming you’re serious, fuck you, asshole. Anyone who drives dangerously just to piss people off has no business behind the wheel.

[Anomalous_Reading]

@Frylock

It would be ridiculous to say that I should be, so to speak, “mentally present” to the color of the sky as part of the act of driving. That would be to include irrelevant information in my decision making process, and it would be to incur unnecessary risk of danger.

Y’know… I understand this is the Pit, but I’d like to think some degree of reason can prevail here. Instead what I’ve seen in this thread is a complete hijack to it’s purpose - an inquiry as to why this happens turned into a wee assassination and a few strawmen along the way. The color of the sky and such… I guess I think I’m writing to an audience with common sense when I should, in fact, realize that in the Pit I’m writing to an audience scrapping for a fight - a very different demographic.

Can we spare me the counter-intuitive “color of the sky” strawmen? I meant mentally present to the driving situation - as is evident from the context of the rest of my post.

@Frylock

What some on this thread are saying is that being “mentally present” to the presence or absence of other cars and pedestrians at an intersection (as relevant to the question of whether to signal*) is like this–it is to include irrelevant information into the decision making process. One should reflexively ignore apparent presence or lack of other cars when it comes to signalling just as one should reflexively ignore the color of the sky.

-FrL-

*There are, of course, plenty of situations in which the presence or lack of cars at an intersection should leap into the forefront of one’s mind. It’s just that deciding whether or not to signal isn’t one of those situations.

I get this point. Really. Did I not admit that I use it when I don’t need to but feel like a dumbass? Yes… kinda did.

My point, is that doing things by rote and rote alone… is NOT safe driving. Sure, the laws are the laws and are such for a reason. You can show me a drive by rote driver and a non-drive by rote - but mentally present driver… I will generally prefer the latter. Drive by rote people… I drive by them all the time - they aren’t safe. THEY are what piss me off…

There’s a balance and a diplomacy to what I’m saying - there’s room on each side to change how it drives…

And until THAT is conceded we get to point, laugh, and call names - because dammit, we’re just that fucking smart… (except that this reads like a junior high screed)

[Anomalous_Reading]

Using your turn signal is secondary to making sure no one is there. The turn signal ALONE isn’t enough…

That’s all I’m saying.

Instead we’re arguing about the signal - which, yes, is important.

(if we can take him at his word, he at least knows no one is there. I’ve been forced into some wild shit on the road… coming into my lane while I’m in the way after you passed me… I really don’t care if you had your turn signal on. I care whether you LOOKED.)

[lissener]

@Bearflag70

Those taking a hard line on turn signal use also never speed? Not even a little? Ever?

Also, my analysis while driving is simple. It consists of noticing nobody is around. That’s it. You make it sound like I’m busting out flow charts at each turn.

Dude, the simple fact is you can’t prove a negative; absence of proof is not proof of absence. Just because you don’t see them doesn’t mean they’re not there. To be in the habit means that, even in those probably rare situations where you don’t see someone who’s there, you’re still covered.

How could it possibly be a strain on your resources to err on the side of safety?

[blondebear]

I dunno, to me the whole point is that when you’re in charge of a machine weighing thousands of pounds, you need to let folks know when you plan on changing directions. How the heck is everyone else supposed to know that you’re moving into another lane, or whether you’re going left, right, or straight out of a driveway? Are they supposed to watch your front tires, or maybe see that you’re turning the steering wheel?

When there’s no-one but you on the road, okay, I can understand. But not using signals when you’re jockeying around with dozens of other cars? No way. People today seem to think that signaling an option. I don’t think the DMV driver’s handbook is made up of suggestions as to how you should behave on the road.

[Frylock]

@Anomalous Reading

Y’know… I understand this is the Pit, but I’d like to think some degree of reason can prevail here. Instead what I’ve seen in this thread is a complete hijack to it’s purpose - an inquiry as to why this happens turned into a wee assassination and a few strawmen along the way. The color of the sky and such… I guess I think I’m writing to an audience with common sense when I should, in fact, realize that in the Pit I’m writing to an audience scrapping for a fight - a very different demographic.

I said in my post the color-of-the-sky example is ridiculous. It’s an analogy. Some on this thread are saying that telling someone to decide whether to signal or not based on what cars are around is like (but not nearly as ridiculous as) telling them to make sure they know what color the sky is before deciding whether to signal or not. In both cases, you would be telling them to incorporate irrelevant information into their decision making process. It does not matter what my judgment of the sky’s color is, and it does not matter what my judgment of the proximity of other vehicles is, for the purposes of signaling.

Can we spare me the counter-intuitive “color of the sky” strawmen? I meant mentally present to the driving situation - as is evident from the context of the rest of my post.

Yes, it was evident. Being mentally present to the driving situation can mean a lot of things. You clearly mean the sensible kind and amount of presence. My point is that being cognizant of the number of cars at the intersection is on the same side of the range of meanings of “mentally present” as being cognizant of the color of the sky would be. To wit, it would not be a sensible kind or amount of mental presence. It’s closer to sensible than being aware of the color of the sky would be–but it’s still not sensible.

I get this point. Really. Did I not admit that I use it when I don’t need to but feel like a dumbass? Yes… kinda did.

If you get (and apparently agree with?) this point, then I have lost track of why you are arguing with me. Where do we disagree?

My point, is that doing things by rote and rote alone… is NOT safe driving.

Emphasis added. You answered (what you claimed was) a strawman with a strawman of your own. I have not claimed you should do anything by “rote and rote alone.” However, it would be strange to deny that certain actions in driving are–and should be!–reflexive, requiring no thought to execute. One example would be turning the steering wheel in order to turn the car. If you thought about that for even a split second before actually doing it, you’d be dead. I do advocate turning the steering wheel to control your car “by rote” if that’s what “by rote” is supposed to mean. And I do advocate signaling a turn “by rote.” It would be silly to say it is bad driving to turn the steering wheel “by rote,” and I’m arguing it is not bad driving to signal “by rote,” but the above can only be understood as an argument if you are trying to say I and others on this thread think one should never think about anything about one’s driving while one is driving. This is completely distinct from any claim anyone here has made.

Sure, the laws are the laws and are such for a reason.

Maybe someone else has appealed to that principle, but I haven’t–and I wouldn’t.

You can show me a drive by rote driver and a non-drive by rote - but mentally present driver… I will generally prefer the latter. Drive by rote people… I drive by them all the time - they aren’t safe. THEY are what piss me off…

I don’t know what you mean by “drive by rote.” Give me some examples of people who piss you off by driving by rote.

There’s a balance and a diplomacy to what I’m saying - there’s room on each side to change how it drives…

I agree with the general sentiment expressed here, but in the case of signalling, I can not see any good reason not to make signalling an automatic reflex–something one does without thinking whenever one makes a turn. Can you give me a good reason not to do so?

-FrL-

[Frylock]

[QUOTE=Anomalous Reading]
Using your turn signal is secondary to making sure no one is there. The turn signal ALONE isn’t enough…

[quote]

Ahhhhh…

Ah.

Then you’ve completely misunderstood the conversation.

Which happens to the best of us!

Anyway, no one’s saying signalling alone is enough. Rather, we’re saying signalling is necessary. (Necessary–not sufficient.)

-FrL-

[Anomalous_Reading]

You are right on many counts and I thank you for clarity - and the request for same.

Ok, I have some baggage here… in my commutes I pass a LOT of mindless drivers. They get right under my skin. People making absurd turning decisions, poor lane choices when driving, inability to get up to speed with any responsibility to safety, etc…

When I hear people embracing JUST a turn signal (and I know that’s partially my own fault) it annoys me. The more important thing to me when I was run off the road after a pick up attempted a fender meld was not whether the moron had his turn signal on - he’d JUST passed me, well… not quite passed me - his bumper was just getting past even with my driver side door when he decided that my lane (both lanes empty) looked so much better. I wanted to know why in hell he didn’t look or recognize that he hadn’t passed me - and he was moving at a decent clip. I did NOT alter my speed and was being careful about things.

My evasions took me a handful of places on the road that day as other people were ALSO there and happily none collided with me.

The idiot just drove on.

A turn signal, ALONE, is not the point.

That’s my baggage… and why I’m not as reasonable as I wish I were… sorry for my tangent - and sorry if I offended earlier.

That is, largely, the content of my objection. Mindless drivers get on my nerves and thoughtless turn signals aren’t that far from thoughtless driving… in my head.

[Bearflag70]

@Dante

Do you find it hard to type with those nails in your wrists?

My point wasn’t really about me taking shit as it was about those dishing it out.

I think it was a mistake for the mod to send this thread to the Pit and immediately use that as the first opportunity to sling mud. This unnecessarily detracted from what could have been a good poll or civil discussion on the merits instead of a pissing contest.

I’m not sure if I should feel sorry for the OP because now nobody who might otherwise admit to and rationally discuss driving practices of any sort that may be interpreted as less than perfect would want to give a candid response. Perhaps the OP opened this thread in IMHO to avoid such a thing, as it appears the OP has abandoned the thread.

I appreciate the input of Roland Orzabal and those others who tried to keep the conversation civil and rational. If you sift through the crap and find their thoughtful arguments, I believe they are well reasoned and have caused me to think twice about signaling practices when it appears the coast is clear.

[joyfool]

Before this got to the point it has, I just wanted to say that I appreciated Bearflag’s honesty and further, the offer of consideration on changing habits. I try to always remember to use my turn signal, but I’m sure I forget upon occasion. Good for you to try what we all should do.

[Anomalous_Reading]

@faithfool

Before this got to the point it has, I just wanted to say that I appreciated Bearflag’s honesty and further, the offer of consideration on changing habits. I try to always remember to use my turn signal, but I’m sure I forget upon occasion. Good for you to try what we all should do.

Seconded.

[Bobotheoptimist]

@Contrapuntal

Assuming you’re serious, fuck you, asshole. Anyone who drives dangerously just to piss people off has no business behind the wheel.

Since the OP is (IIRC) a perfectly nice person in Northern California (a state that has much greater respect for merging traffic than my own) and I’ve not driven there in quite some time, you could stop being a fucknut and try to take things a little less seriously. Prick.

People who get pissed whilst driving are dangerous.

[Gatopescado]

For me, its reasons 1,2 and 3. And a 4th reason being that generally there is not another car within 2 miles.

I’ll signal if I need to. Otherwise, why waste the energy?

Who’s green now, Motha-fukka!?!

[Contrapuntal]

@Bobotheoptimist

People who get pissed whilst driving are dangerous.

Then why try to piss them off, dumbass?

[Maastricht]

@blondebear

They can’t be bothered?
They’re too damn lazy to flick that little lever all the time?
They can’t have “the man” telling them what to do?
They already have a cellphone in one hand?
They’re stupid?
Turn signals are just so…old school?

I’m curious to read what Dopers have to say on this motorway mystery.

7. They *do *use the turn signal, but too short. They think their lights have blinked one or two times, when they actually haven’t blinked even once. My hubby drove behind a friend’s car this weekend and commented on the friend not using the turn signal. The friend was very surprised, and said he’s going to let his turn signal on longer.

8. The Netherlands saw an interesting shift in the taught use of the turn signal while I got my drivers education. It’s about how to use the turn signal when driving in the acceleration lane. For the older generation, using the turn signal while on the acceleration lane means “I’m coming into your lane NOW, make room for me NOW or suffer the consequences!”.
   The younger generation, on the other hand, is used to the almost constant acceleration lanes that weave into and out of traffic, so that it isn’t really self-evident that a car on the acceleration lane will always wants to insert into the main lane. So for them, using the turn signal means “Yes, I *would *like to insert my car into your lane somewhere in the next few minutes, whenever it is convenient to you, please”.
   Confusing the two has given me quite a few near-heart attacks.