My wife is afro-Guyanese (her family is from Guyana that is on the south American mainland but part of British Caribbean). She has excellent “Carrib-dar” and can identify people from the Caribbean (even 1st and 2nd gen-ers who don’t have an accent), and does a fairly good job of identifying which island they are from.
I don’t think it’s a contradiction, just a different segment of demographics, maybe? I know what you’re talking about and see it more frequently with people younger than me, Gen Z and later.
As an early millennial, I don’t see it that much from my generation, personally. We don’t really harbor the same prejudices as the generation before us (they’re just not a part of our lived experience) but we also don’t feel the need to go out of our way to virtue signal and try to emphasize our unique perspective like the youngins do. For me people are different, yes. Some people are a different color or sexual orientation or gender. That’s cool. They should be able to be themselves. But beyond that, it’s not something I really care to dwell on.
I would never play the race card just to get attention or for debate points. But then again I’ve never needed to, probably because my parents chose assimilation for me rather than individuality or diversity. As an East Asian of middle class upbringing, for the most part I get all the perks and privileges of being white (cops don’t kill me sight unseen, teachers like me, doctors trust me) without the burdens (nobody asks me to check my privilege or step down to let PoCs speak).
In that sense our lived experience is very different from other people of color, and we get to play both sides… get white treatment most of the time but still be considered a PoC in sensitive situations. It probably actually hurts the equality movement, even, since it’s a point for the assimilation approach rather than diversification. For us it wasn’t a history of “separate but equal” but rather “just copy the white people until they stop noticing you’re not white”. We get the perks of whiteness but also the protections meant for black people, who have had much harder struggles.
It’s easier for us when there’s not a history of slavery. The railroads were not a great time, but neither was the Cultural Revolution or Tiananmen or the Killing Fields or the Rape of Nanking, which is to say the Asians were perfectly capable of self inflicted atrocities that didn’t involve people of African or European descent. The internal struggles in greater China, even now, seem way more a point of contention than white-involved incidents like the opium wars or the Koreas. Race to them is Han or not, not white or black.
And speaking of history, I don’t think every attempt to reexamine it is necessarily revisionist. History was always a work in progress (woke in progress?) and adding more nuance to it from different perspectives just broadens the discussion. It’s not like classical historians all agreed with each other (whether in Greece or China), or contemporary European ones, or Japanese vs Korean ones, etc. Why would we expect American historians, living in one of the most diverse, transparent, messy, evolving, and ultimately fragmented societies to be homogenous? The same way the physical history of fossils and genetics and taxonomies continue to be discovered and better understood with new data, cultural history isn’t and can’t be stagnant. When new information comes to light it naturally deserves a deeper look. That doesn’t mean throw all the old stuff away, but make room for new data too and see how it fits together. Guess what, great people have great flaws, that shouldn’t be a surprise now or ever. Likewise, even the oppressed had great moments of joy and triumph. All of that can and should be remembered. Humans are messy and imperfect and our histories are too, no need to gloss over that.
“I really don’t think you can judge that by where somebody’s from.” Said fairly coldly, followed by changing the subject.
The sort of quip you were trying to think of only reinforces the (wink) part, which is what’s really the problem.
A larger problem is that you’ve just said to them ‘You are something other than normal. Which particular variety of Other are you?’
It may not seem that way to people who are used to ‘where are you from?’ being a usual sort of party question to people who appear to be within one’s ethnic group and from whom you expect an answer of ‘next town over’, or ‘name of large city’ or ‘other state/province/etc within the same country’. But that’s the actual meaning often enough that it’s likely to be taken that way even if you didn’t mean it that way.
And – if you’re asking them in a situation in which you wouldn’t ask someone who does appear to you to be a member of your own ethnic group – then that is indeed your actual meaning. ‘You’re weird, you don’t belong. What kind of weird are you?’
That’s a bit different, I think; at least, if it’s coming from people whose home language is Korean or Vietnamese. For one thing, they’re leading off by implicitly saying ‘This is my language’; and probably effectively asking ‘Can I speak with you the language I’m most comfortable in?’
If it’s people whose native language is English and they just want to practice their Korean on her, and she’s not in Korea (or some other location where Korean would be expected) at the time, that’s something else entirely, and no I don’t think they should be doing that.
If she is in Korea at the time, or somewhere else where one would expect a lot of people to speak Korean, then I don’t see any problem.
That one’s understandable. It is, after all, a Japanese restaurant; while that doesn’t guarantee that anyone there, let alone everybody there, speaks Japanese, it’s worth a try; and it doesn’t ‘other’ anybody, it just says ‘you’re working at a Japanese restaurant, maybe you speak Japanese.’
In case you are not aware of this, the phrases “virtue signalling” and “playing the race card” are right wing bigot buzzwords designed to denigrate, in the first case, white people who are trying to be sensitive to others, and in the second, those very others, trying to make white people aware of the challenges of being other in this society. You should know that these are racist insults, not neutral descriptions in any way.
Or maybe you do know that.
I’m third generation born, raised and hope to die in Hawaii, Okinawan/Japanese.
I was flamed to a crisp when I posted that I, and many/most in Hawaii refer to other’s by their ethnicity and/or nationality. I suspect part of it is the conscious or subconscious desire/need to be part of a social group. Leaning towards social familiarity.
Edit: An extension of this may be love for Asian movies and TV. I feel a kinship with the actors, actresses and culture.
You’ve be given a blank stare if you said “That Asian guy!”. ??? Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc. On the other hand, “That haole (white, though actually referring to any foreigner) guy!” You’ll usually get an a knowing nod. Note that it’s almost never, that Swedish, Scottish, German, etc.
When I see people, I DO see skin color, eye, nose and slip shape, physique, etc. And subconsciously think, Japanese, Chinese, Filipino, Samoan, Portuguese, white…And yes, I do often speak and treat them differently.
If they appear to be an East Asian national, I’ll bow slightly when I greet them. If they’re local (a kamaaina), I’ll greet them with a howzit!, I can’t explain how I and others are able to usually tell the difference, but it’s there, a vestige of the plantation days where there were camps based on ethnicity.
That said, I never score more than ~70% on alllooksame.com where the faces are purposely chosen to not be what many thing stereotypical.
A few weeks ago, my manager asked me if I knew who was the contact for one of our customers. I thought and blurted out, “Tam. She’s Vietnamese!” based on speaking to her on the phone and the fact that her last name is Nyuen. Yes, her ethnicity apparently had no bearing on who she is, but it just came out without thought.
Several years ago, I was speaking to another manager (different company) and she was describing one of the other manager… I couldn’t picture him until she said, “The borinki (Puerto Rican)!” and I immediately pictured whom she was referring to.
Three stories that the PC crowd won’t find this funny, but I found it hilarious!
My ex was fifth generation Chinese. But people thought she was a Japanese national.
When I went to a dinner with her and her family, the other people on the table thought I was the son and she was my Japan national girlfriend!
We once went as the videographers with a group of Japan national students. They started speaking to her in Japanese, apologizing because she was also a Japanese national high school student!
And my favorite was when we when on the ferry to visit the Fern Grotto in Kauai. We were placed on the ferry with the tourists because the other ferry was for Japan nationals. Everyone on our ferry stared and the other ferry stared at us with a “You’re on the wrong ferry!” look on their faces.
A great deal of what’s been happening recently, however, has little or nothing to do with discovering new data. That can happen in history – notebooks found at the back of old library shelves or in somebody’s attic, for instance; or new archaeological techniques being applied – but often what’s being discussed, and what’s being objected to, isn’t new information but information that was ignored and dropped from the portion of historical record that was taught to most of us. It was known all along, for instance, that the Tulsa Race Massacre happened. But it wasn’t included in the history taught in schools; and neither was a whole lot of other stuff.
It’s not possible to include absolutely everything in any history book, or in any school curriculum, or in any town’s published history of itself, or even in any one library selection. But when there’s a chronic pattern of certain things being included and other things being left out – and there has been – that’s a problem. And drawing attention to the problem, to that selectiveness, is important.
Extending further on this thought. I’ve told this story before. I used to visit Chinese and Korean video stores and would be asked by the clerks, “You’re Japanese right?”, and when I’d reply “I’m Okinawan/Japanese.” They’d laugh and reply, “Awww…close enough, you’re Chinese/Korean!” and happily greeted me whenever I’d return.
Given Japan’s history with China and Korea, I wonder if I’d be so accepted if I just said I was Japanese. Yes, the pain and hurt goes far and deep. A story I’ve told in other threads.
I agree with you on “playing the race card.” But I see “virtue signalling” happening frequently where I live, and I’m very very far from right-wing. It’s a way of shutting down discussion.
No, actually, I wasn’t aware those were laden terms. Do you have suggestions for synonyms without the baggage?
Etymology aside, it’s more that it’s a little depressing to see well intentioned white people spending their time and energy doing these performances that don’t really amount to anything. Whether it’s a land acknowledgement or pulling down a statue, so often they mean well but it seems to me like they do more to assuage white guilt than to actually uplift anyone or lessen oppression. It also kinda refocuses the legitimate issues that various groups have back into the white perspective. How about reparations and honor taxes instead? How about giving back stolen federal land? Ending redlining? Looking at the cross section of armed law enforcement and white supremacy? Prison reform? Voting for people who don’t look like you? Casteism? Immigration reform? The politically correct theater just seems like a cynical take on lessening the mental burden of already privileged people rather than a pathway to real change or actual power.
There’s also a lot of what looks like “divide and conquer” to me, of giving people easy “gotchas” to throw at their supposed opponents while obscuring shared class issues, for example. Race wars are easy to fan, but these days they aren’t so neatly aligned to traditional left right struggles anymore. But the USA often lacks the political literacy to debate them in more nuanced terms, especially when so much of the political theater is still rich and white.
We’ve gotten really good at silencing each other. We haven’t solved any real issues in a long, long time.
I’m gonna shut up now and highlight this lol. It’s a far more authentic and interesting take on race!
Hawaii is where all the boring old stereotypes go to die. Much respect.
On “virtue signaling” – as someone who my entire adult life has tried to do the right thing by the marginalized and oppressed despite being congenitally incapable of wanting to interact with strangers, I resent the implication that I’m only trying to show empathy or solidarity because I want admiration for it. Perhaps there are those who do, but I’ve never met them. Of course one tries, through thought, word, and deed, to feel better about oneself. But that’s what everyone should be doing. That’s called having a conscience.
Trying to be empathetic to the needs of ‘othered’ people is really really complicated and difficult. Ambivalence, confusion, guilt, abound. It is a very rare person who can approach such a problem in a straightforward way. Absolutely, many dumb ideas are implemented. And some actions are less useful than they are merely gestural. And some are purely counterproductive. But what’s a good idea? Who gets to say? There are some out there, but it’s hard to sort. There’s no good phrase to describe such a complex of issues.
As for “playing the race card” – that’s just yet another way to say “uppity n****r”. Just don’t go there either.
I believe you. But I assure you that I have met such people. Decades ago, a friend in our UU church referred to “white women of conscience,” to describe a certain category of brainless do-gooders. Kinda a cousin to virtue signalers.
You can just go about leading the best life you can without being evangelical about it.
Hell, not about race, but have you never met a vegan? 
In short, yeah, righties can misuse these terms trying to be disparaging. Hell, they think “Socialism” or even “liberal” are insults.
Why would Hawaii segregate tourists by race/nationality?
I should have stated English speaking tourists versus non-English speaking tourists. The tourists on the other ferry may have been an chartered group. I didn’t want to say this, but we were the only non-white riders on our ferry so stuck out even more. 3
And not only did I guess from the appearances of the other group they were Japan nationals, but I could hear the guide speaking Japanese as they boarded and as the ferries passed each other.
I do wonder but I try to avoid asking until we’ve had a reasonably long conversation about anything else.
Having curiosity about people is fine, but you have to be aware that for people with brown skin or Asian eyes, say, they get asked about their “race” or nationality a lot, and it does get a bit tiresome.
ETA: Obviously the scenario matters though. Asking a tourist where they are from would be different.
True dat! In my experience, sometimes people have an “obvious” face that is correct a majority of the time? But that is usually for East Asians in East Asia so there are other clues such as dress, make up, personal space, etc. It is really hard to try differentiate ethnicity for an 2nd or 3rd generation Asian American as they project American clues.
Second and third this. I’m trying not to elicit calls of racist and stereotyping with the following.
BTW, China_Guy, I’ve assumed all the time you were native Chinese! Hou ye! Hou ye! (Very good!/Great!). Sorry, I don’t know the Mandarin equivalent. Hao la? Hao la? (Good with emphasis?)
I call everyone to take the Alllooksame East Asian face challenge AllLookSame - China, Japan, Korea: What’s the difference?. Before anyone screams, it’s racist! It’s presented in fun and purposely chooses people whose facial features and expressions are meant to confuse. I’ve taken it many times before and just took it again. I scored 8 out of 18 (the average is 7), randomly picking any answer the second half out of frustration. I did do well in the first half because I knew not to go with my first impression.
I’ve linked to this before. This is a clip of five native Southern and Northern Chinese speaking (in some cases heavily accented Mandarin) Mandarin Chinese Accent Challenge: "North or South?" (Chinese Accents) I Learn from the streets - YouTube
I’ve watched the video several times and have always gotten all five right, driven by visual appearances before hearing them speak. In another thread China_Guy said the test was obviously easy. I don’t remember he mentioned whether he used their appearances as a guide.
I have a good friend who’s vegan. She feeds her cats meat-based foods, and she offered to cook meat for me when I was ill.
Vegans, like anybody else, vary.
I’ve seen 10X more mockery of vegans than I’ve seen preaching from vegans. And I know a lot of vegans. I’m not vegan, I’m not even vegetarian, but I know my lifestyle is not good for the environment and results in a lot of animal cruelty. This feeling is not the vegans’ problem.
Unless I’m a self-centered asshole myself.
That’s related, sure. The NYT reported a study that showed that of all the individual lifestyle changes one could make that would have the most significant impact on climate change, going vegan was in the top five. It inspired me to go mostly vegetarian although giving up dairy and eggs is not in the cards.
The vegan thing can be about personal health and often is. I find people who want to grandstand about their own healthcare choices to be extremely obnoxious. Or it could be about being a voice for the most voiceless – animals. This gets really dubious, as the large majority of these beliefs are based in a kind of aggressive ignorance that really gets under my skin. The foundation is a belief that we are set apart, that we are not animals ourselves and we must not interact with other forms of life except in what we imagine to be a completely benign way.
It is interesting to compare trying not to be racist with trying not to cause harm to animals. In each case there’s a sense of trying to give others autonomy. But is that really ours to give? And is that even a useful standard or goal?
There’s nothing simple about any of it, but the discouraging reality is that no matter what side, everyone hates nuance, wants to be righteously right, and is never as insightful as the situation requires.
Possibly interesting, but also, I’d say, pretty damn risky. Comparisons of humans of other races to non-human animals have been so often racist that any such comparison is suspect. And the comparison carries within itself, even aside from historical issues, a serious risk of implying that people not of the dominant race can’t possibly have the same sort of agency, specifically within human societies, that people of the dominant race do.