N/m
I have a question and I hope this doesn’t derail the thread because I think it’s related, but if it’s only the combustion of tobacco that causes cancer, why does chewing tobacco… or dip, or whatever it’s called, cause oral and throat cancer? Is it some other compound in the tobacco leaves that does this, or is it the nicotine? If it is the nicotine, then perhaps e-cigarettes aren’t a safer alternative in at least that way.
Found the following on wikipedia:
While no epidemiological evidence supports that nicotine alone acts as a carcinogen in the formation of human cancer, research over the last decade has identified nicotine’s carcinogenic potential in animal models and cell culture.[72][73] Nicotine has been noted to directly cause cancer through a number of different mechanisms such as the activation of MAP Kinases.[74] Indirectly, nicotine increases cholinergic signalling (and adrenergic signalling in the case of colon cancer[75]), thereby impeding apoptosis (programmed cell death), promoting tumor growth, and activating growth factors and cellular mitogenic factors such as 5-LOX, and EGF. Nicotine also promotes cancer growth by stimulating angiogenesis and neovascularization.[76][77] In one study, nicotine administered to mice with tumors caused increases in tumor size (twofold increase), metastasis (nine-fold increase), and tumor recurrence (threefold increase).
Smoking is immoral because it harms those around you, the cigarette-related litter impacts the environment, and because it burdens our health care system with preventable, expensive illness.
Vaping is immoral because…ummm…none of the above. The caveat is that we still don’t know the long-term health effects. Most studies so far seem positive, but what will we know in 50 years?
Vaping does not trigger asthma, except maybe by the power of MIND-CONTROL! The primary ingredient (propylene glycol) is also the primary ingredient of asthma inhalers.
A Real Man does not necessarily quit cold-turkey only. A Real Man accepts whatever help is necessary to accomplish the hard goals that are worth accomplishing. If that means e-cigs, then so be it.
Propylene glycol, which makes up 70-95% of the content of most e-liquid by volume, is well-known to be safe for ingestion and inhalation. It is a regular additive to livestock food as well as a preservative in food for people, and is a primary ingredient in asthma inhalers and fog machines you might encounter at a rock concert or haunted house. It has been considered as an additive to air in hospital ventilation to combat airborne infection, but as far as I know has never been implemented as such. I’m unaware of any studies of long-term, consistent inhalation as would be experienced by an e-cig user.
Nicotine, pound-for-pound, is significantly more dangerous than caffeine. In the amounts present in e-liquid, though, it is on par with caffeine in terms of health impact, although it is much more addictive. Most studies find that it does not cause cancer, but some studies do disagree. Other studies have found that it improves concentration and may combat Alzheimer’s, but IMHO that research is suspect.
Downing a typical 30ml bottle of e-juice will likely result in nausea, and maybe an ER visit for children. It can also be absorbed through the skin, although the amount is e-liquid isn’t really concerning. I come into contact with trivial amounts on a regular basis with no ill effects - just wash your hands in the case of a spill. Note that if you like to make your own e-liquid (I do - it’s inexpensive and fun) that working with higher concentrations of nicotine intended to be diluted down requires some simple but careful double-checked calculations, and reasonable precautions such as gloves and eye protection.
Studies have found that over 98% of the nicotine contained in e-liquid is absorbed by the person using the e-cig, so impact of 2nd hand vapor is trivial to none.
The biggest wildcard is probably the flavoring (about 5-20% of your typical e-liquid). They are considered safe for ingestion, but there is virtually no research on their inhalation, outside of studies specific to e-cigs.
E-cig haters will argue that you are still an addict. Can’t argue with that logic, because it is true. It’s not as strong as the analog addiction, as the stinkies contain other ingredients that are also addictive, and don’t allow you to control the amount of nicotine to wean yourself off, but long-term vapers are still addicts, and those who use e-cigs to quit entirely still eventually face a cold-turkey moment.
Extremely rabid anti-e-ciggers will be aware of the few cases of exploding batteries and throw that in your face (morbid pun not intended). That’s also a very real, albeit very unlikely, risk. Any battery carries an inherent risk - we’ve all heard stories of exploding cell phones and flaming laptops. An e-cig is a battery you put in your mouth. However, all (3) known cases of injury due to battery failure that I am aware of involved “mods” using incorrect battery types. Purchase quality equipment from reputable manufacturers, avoid “garage mods”, and follow all charging instructions and battery recommendations.
Congrats on making the smart move to get off the stinkies!
It’s not just the combustion. “smokeless tobacco” products still contain the same levels of nitrosamines, long believed to be the primary causes of cancer in tobacco.
According to this studythe nicotine and propylene glycol vapor from e-cigs contained just trace amounts of nitrosamines when any were present at all.
TSNAs (also available in a minority of e-liquids, I personally stay away), polonium, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons.
But it is worth recognizing that e-cigs are reduced risk, not zero risk. Most vapers and studies that didn’t come out of the starting gate with an agenda agree that the amount of reduction is substantial, but not to the point of zero risk. Are we kidding ourselves? Ask again in 50 years.
i’m a user of swedish snus, which goes in the upper lip, and doesn’t make you spit.
the tobacco is steam pasteurized instead of flue cured (like chewing tobacco), so the TSNA (cancer causing agents) levels are 100s of times smaller than chewing tobacco and cigarette smoke.
trying to explain this to people that are anti-tobacco is pointless, and you should save yourself some grief by not even bothering to reply to this person.
To the bolded part: It’s possible to buy e-cigs and the juice that are not made in China. Some vendors only use juice ingredients sourced in the US.
What most people recognise as “electronic cigarettes” are the cig-looking devices you find in gas stations and mall kiosks, but there are many better options.
Three anecdotal data points.
1: I quit smoking about 50 RYO daily in April by switching to vaping. I’m now cutting down my levels of nicotine. I tell you: I feel like a non-smoker now, and don’t smell like one any more, which is great. No more coughing, cleaner teeth, better lung capacity. Plus I didn’t gain an ounce. 
Plus, now that I’ve figured out devices and juice that work for me, it’s cheaper.
I was a hardcore smoker but tried countless times and various methods to quit. It’s a horrible addiction; I relapsed countless times too. So yes, I’m still addicted to nicotine but so far this is working for me.
2: Neighbor across the street had a stroke a couple of months ago. I’d introduced him to vaping, although he only managed to cut down the smokes, not quit. He was in rehab for a month and having horrible nic withdrawal and was allergic to the nicotine patch. Smoking not allowed anywhere in or near the rehab facility. After some negotiation, the doctors there said he could have his e-cig, although he had to vape outside. They didn’t see it as risky as smoking, WRT his stroke risk.
3: Another friend’s husband has had a couple of heart attacks but refuses to even attempt quitting smoking. :rolleyes: They asked his cardiologist about switching to vaping and he said that was a great idea.
Also, excellent post by Sanity Challenged!
I am *extremely *anti-smoking, but I have stated several times that snus, etc is better than smoking cigs- both for your health, and the fact there’s no SHS. So, snus all you want. **Do remember to get regular dental check ups. **
Thank you! My stupidity is no longer enshrined for perpetuity. =)
Sanity Challenged, that was a hell of a lot of good information. Now I want to learn how to make my own liquids! (oh dear, that sounded weird, haha). Also thanks to chiroptera for the PM, and good info here. Congrats on quitting analogs, too! Last, muchas gracias Crazyhorse for the information on nitrosamines. I particularly like your quoted information here:
Sound bites like this are a great help!
My e-cig should be here Friday. I’m doing a lot of reading on my own, these things have gotten a lot more complicated since the one I bought 2 years ago.
From reading that wiki thing, I would suggest you avoid any juice that has menthol flavoring, because menthol increases the metabolic half-life of nicotine in your system.
Note that lung damage is primarily due to tar, which is a combustion product that would be absent in e-cigs, so your lungs will begin healing from the moment you take the last puff of fire-stick. And e-cigs will not, AFAICT, roach up like the second half of a fire-stick, they should be of consistent strength start to finish.
I guess we are talking about two different things:
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Are e-cigs completely void of any possible health consequences to the user? and
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Do e-cigs harm those around to the extent that they should be restricted like cigarettes?
I think that #1 is obviously debatable as these things haven’t been around very long, but from early reports and common sense, they seem no more dangerous than most food products, but #2 seems like absolutely hell no.
I have been vaping for almost two years now, ever since I was hired at a smoke-free university. It’s hard to imagine any part of ecigs that are not substantially better than regular cigarettes for both the user and those around him. Neighbors are unaffected and largely unaware that it is taking place nearby.
Rachel’s Facebook respondent was very poorly informed and, worse, failed to recognize that as a possibility before going off on a foolish and embarrassing rant.
The Clear Stream project is systematically testing all flavors sold by FlavourArt (One of the primary flavor providers) for toxicity as a vaporized product http://clearstream.flavourart.it/ They have found an organic flavor that isn’t a good candidate for vaping, but I can’t remember which one. For each flavor they have tested, you can download the lab report (about 18 pages in Italian and English) and read the tests completed and results for yourself.
Technically, no e-cig design that I’ve seen has you put the battery in your mouth. It is typically at least 1 inch from your mouth (to allow for the atomizer).
Ooh. What did you order, may I be so bold? I’m using a KGO pass-through with clearomizers, and mostly complex tobacco/coffee-flavored juices.
I’ve tried a couple of strange flavors: dill pickle and maple bacon toast - ick. On the other hand, fried peanut-butter banana toast and apples fosters with cream are two of my go-to juices for when I want a sweet vape.
1: I would say it’s naive to assert that they are 100 percent risk-free and since it is a relatively new phenomenon not much is known of the long-term health effects. Certainly it can’t be a great idea to willingly inhale food-grade flavorings, vegetable glycerin and/or propylene glycol (many vendors sell VG-only juice) and nicotine extract* repeatedly, day-to-day.
But nothing I’ve ever read indicates is anywhere near as bad as inhaling cigarette smoke. Certainly, as a reformed smoker, I FEEL like a non-smoker now.
- It’s possible also to purchase juice with zero nicotine. Many people start with high levels (eg, 32 or 36 mg) and titrate down. I’ve also seen non-smoking people on vape forums say they’ve had success using tasty, zero-nic juice as a weight-control aid. I am not endorsing this, BTW.
2: See above. Non-smokers and people who absolutely loathe cigarette smoke let me smoke in their homes, or cars with the windows closed. Pretty much everyone I’ve asked says the smell is somewhere between pleasant and non-existent even when I blow a stream of vapor in their faces.
And little if any nicotine vapor is released into the air.
But is it completely harmless? That has yet to be determined. But it certainly doesn’t seem to be offensive to non-smokers.
The FAA has banned it in airports and planes because no safety standards have been established. I am a hospice volunteer and do not vape in hospitals, nursing homes or client’s houses. I’m thinking it’s probably no more harmful than cleaning supplies, outgassing of millions of VOCs from everything from carpets to new furniture to wallboard, car exhaust and so on, but nobody really knows.
Let’s see, I got (from madvapes):
1 Vision Mini eGo Smart Kit
3 spare Super Shorty 2.5 Ohm 510 Chrome Cartomizers
30 ml Irish Mintz e-liquid, 24mg
I wanted to buy a spare battery, but they were sold out. Also, I have no idea how cartos work. How long do they typically last? My last e-cig had a separate atomizer and drip tip, but the atomizer quality was pretty shitty. Part of why I didn’t stick with it was because the draw got so hard, or the vapor tasted “burnt” even though I had dripped enough liquid on the thing that it got on my hands. I read the reviews on the mini ego, though, and they all looked positive.
I guess that’s my point. Since when do we ban things that the harm has “yet to be determined”? There are clear studies that show the harm of second hand smoke, but nothing showing the harm for vapor. Like in any free country, something shouldn’t be banned unless there is a reason.
Do you have a cite that the FAA has banned them in airports and on planes? Last week I was in Pittsburgh International and puffed away with no problem and no questions asked. I didn’t try to vape on the plane because I wasn’t sure and didn’t want to ask the stewardess by pulling out a vial of strange liquid.
But I was only concerned because of post-911 hysteria, not second hand smoke hysteria. Plus, since when does the FAA even regulate actual smoking in the terminal? There are at least a few that (last I checked a couple of years ago) still allow it. (Pittsburgh allowed it in restaurants and bars in the terminal until 2007).