People who hate atheists just for their beliefs are bigots

[Mijin]

The thing is, it’s almost necessary for religions to have some kind of hostility / contempt for non-believers.

Because in their view (most religions anyway), it is of profound importance to believe.
If they accept that there are people out there who are smart, and open-minded but don’t come to the same conclusion as they do, the whole thing starts to unravel. What’s the fate of such unbelievers? Why didn’t god leave something more convincing than biblical miracles? Whose fault is it that they don’t believe?

It’s much simpler to believe atheists are willfully turning their backs on god.

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

@Der_Trihs

It’s only with Christianity and its relatives that suddenly people feel the need to be “agnostic” and pretend that it isn’t blindingly obvious that it’s all baseless nonsense.

Is it any wonder that Christians take offense to outspoken atheists ?

Frankly being pissed off at people for their beliefs or opinions is fair common an all sides of any issue. Around here or anywhere else. Its when hatred extends to people for their inherent qualities that it becomes bigotry.

[YogSothoth]

@raindog

Czarcasm
Please afford me the intellectual courage to answer in one word each the following 3 questions:

1. Is there a God?
   (yes or no)

2. Can you prove it?
   (yes or no)

3. Do you consider yourself an atheist?
   (yes or no)

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes

Chew on THAT!

[Der_Trihs]

@The_Flying_Dutchman

Is it any wonder that Christians take offense to outspoken atheists ?

“Outspoken”? They hate atheists just for existing. The ones that admit that we exist in the first place.

[Skammer]

@Der_Trihs

First, your position validates bigotry by making it rational. You’re creating a category of bigots who are in the right with your hugely over-broad use of the term.

How so? Bigotry is not rational at all.

As for your “hate people for what they do” idea; Hitler was an evil man before he had a single person killed. That’s why he started killing them, after all. And he’d have still been evil even if circumstances had never put him in a position to instigate the Holocaust.

He may have been evil before he committed any evil acts, but at that point, why hate him? Evil and powerless people should be pitied for their warped views, not hated.

@Mijin

The thing is, it’s almost necessary for religions to have some kind of hostility / contempt for non-believers.

Because in their view (most religions anyway), it is of profound importance to believe.
If they accept that there are people out there who are smart, and open-minded but don’t come to the same conclusion as they do, the whole thing starts to unravel. What’s the fate of such unbelievers? Why didn’t god leave something more convincing than biblical miracles? Whose fault is it that they don’t believe?

It’s much simpler to believe atheists are willfully turning their backs on god.

@Der_Trihs

“Outspoken”? They hate atheists just for existing. The ones that admit that we exist in the first place.

This is what I’m getting at. You take an extremely broad category of people (religious believers) and assign beliefs and motives to them that are by no means universal in that group. Millions of believers have no hostility/contempt for non-believers – some dedicate their lives to serving people outside their religion – but you paint them all as irrational, hostile, hateful and in denial. Some are like that, but characterizing all believers with that description is bigotry. There are many more believers who are loving and self-giving and compassionate to people including atheists.

If I claimed all athiests were hostile and hateful and had to be intellectually dishonest to disbelieve in God, you’d rightly accuse me of bigotry. It goes both ways.

[Der_Trihs]

@Skammer

How so? Bigotry is not rational at all.

Your definition of bigotry is. Hating people who want to kill you is perfectly rational.

@Skammer

He may have been evil before he committed any evil acts, but at that point, why hate him?

Why not? There’s nothing intrinsically wrong about hatred.

@Skammer

This is what I’m getting at. You take an extremely broad category of people (religious believers) and assign beliefs and motives to them that are by no means universal in that group.

Saying I can’t condemn a billions-strong category unless every single one of them agrees is ridiculous. Both because I’m never going to be able to get to know them one by one, and because groups of any size never have the Borglike uniformity that you are demanding before I criticize them. Your argument is tailor made to make the targets of hatred unable to defend themselves (verbally or otherwise), since they’ll never, ever be able to know every single person in that group that collectively hates them, nor will that hateful group ever be perfectly uniform. Whether you intend it that way or not, your standard is one tailor made to shield bigots and such since in renders them immune to criticism of any kind. That’s certainly how I see this standard used elsewhere, to silence criticism.

@Skammer

If I claimed all athiests were hostile and hateful and had to be intellectually dishonest to disbelieve in God, you’d rightly accuse me of bigotry. It goes both ways.

I doubt I’d call you you a “bigot”; I’d just call you religious because that attitude is the norm for believers (just ;look at the opinion polls, atheists are overwhelmingly despised). And it doesn’t go both ways; you are demanding that I follow a standard that the believers never are.

[Mijin]

@Skammer

This is what I’m getting at. You take an extremely broad category of people (religious believers) and assign beliefs and motives to them that are by no means universal in that group. Millions of believers have no hostility/contempt for non-believers – some dedicate their lives to serving people outside their religion – but you paint them all as irrational, hostile, hateful and in denial. Some are like that, but characterizing all believers with that description is bigotry. There are many more believers who are loving and self-giving and compassionate to people including atheists.

Well, it’s kinda cool being grouped with Der Trihs. But I think you’ve misunderstood me.

My post wasn’t addressed at a group as such; it was describing the reasons why I think the existence of atheism sits uncomfortably with many brands of theism. When I said “religions” that wasn’t a typo; I’m saying atheism is a problem for religions where belief is of paramount importance.
How much of a problem it is for individuals is obviously going to vary and it’s clearly no problem at all for some. I didn’t think that even needed to be said.

On first draft of my post, I went on to give the flip side: That I know there are lots of theists that are very intelligent, and good people, and that’s fine. I don’t need to think any more about that because in my view there’s no higher reward or point to belief, or the lack of it.

[Skammer]

@Der_Trihs

Your definition of bigotry is. Hating people who want to kill you is perfectly rational.

Why not? There’s nothing intrinsically wrong about hatred.

Hating people who want to kill you is not bigotry; you’re right that it’s natural. But it is bigotry to assume that because someone is part of a certain group, they want to kill you.

Maybe if you’re Jewish, and part of the Nazi platform is to eradicate Jews, you have a good case. But no matter how much you say believers hate and want to kill or persecute atheists, it’s not true for the group as a whole.

Certain atheists believe that all religion and religous people are evil; but I don’t assume that to be the opinion of all atheists.

Saying I can’t condemn a billions-strong category unless every single one of them agrees is ridiculous. Both because I’m never going to be able to get to know them one by one, and because groups of any size never have the Borglike uniformity that you are demanding before I criticize them.

Then maybe you should be more selective in your criticism, or get to know a few more.

Your argument is tailor made to make the targets of hatred unable to defend themselves (verbally or otherwise), since they’ll never, ever be able to know every single person in that group that collectively hates them, nor will that hateful group ever be perfectly uniform. Whether you intend it that way or not, your standard is one tailor made to shield bigots and such since in renders them immune to criticism of any kind. That’s certainly how I see this standard used elsewhere, to silence criticism.

Your argument is tailor made to pre-judge people as worthy of scorn and hatred without bothering to learn anything about them other than what they do on Sunday mornings.

I doubt I’d call you you a “bigot”; I’d just call you religious because that attitude is the norm for believers (just ;look at the opinion polls, atheists are overwhelmingly despised). And it doesn’t go both ways; you are demanding that I follow a standard that the believers never are.

You’re doing it again. There are believers who hate atheists or gays or whatever. I’ve known quite a few. They’re probably even the majority in certain sub-categories. But there are also religious liberals, homosexuals, scientists, libertarians, professors, etc. You can’t take undersirable characteristics of a few and assign them to a whole. Assuming all Christians are secretly like Fred Phelps is like me assuming that all atheists are like you.

[Kevbo]

@Trinopus

It’s sort of like someone being a policeman and a bank-robber. He can go from being one to being another, and back, as many times as he likes, but it’s darned difficult to be both at once!

Heh! I give you Matthew Griffin.

[bartleby]

@Der_Trihs

“Outspoken”? They hate atheists just for existing. The ones that admit that we exist in the first place.

got a chip on your shoulder much?

I know, I know, nothing I say is valid or correct because I think I believe in a giant sky fairy that rains candy down on me, but here are my two cents (I don’t really, you see, because I have been told, on this board, more than once, that I don’t know my own mind as well as others here do, amazing, isn’t it?).

I am a Catholic. I believe in God. I cannot prove that there is a God, as this is what faith is all about.
I am not delusional, nor am I insane.
I do not hate anyone because of what group they may or may not be in. (this does not mean I will not avoid or feel uncomfortable around people who are, say Nazis, or Klansmen, or whatnot).
I try to judge people on a one on one basis.

I don’t hate Atheist, some of my best friends are Atheists. I have had many interesting and fun conversations about religion, spirituality, faith, and related topics with Atheists.

Does (just for example) the LDS church make me nervous? Yes, very much so. However, EVERY SINGLE MORMON that I have ever met has been a very, very, very nice person. I have liked them all, I have not judged any of them on their religion.

It’s like that with everyone. I know people from many many religions who espouse beliefs and opinions that I don’t like. I either avoid those people or avoid those topics.

Whatever your core beliefs are, good for you, as long as you are not actively trying to ensure that I believe EXACTLY the same as you, we’ll be cool.

Here’s the thing. I expect that from you too. I’m not trying to convert anyone, I’m not calling anyone stupid for any deeply-held belief.

Why can’t we get that from Hardcore, Fundamentalist Atheists as well? I’m not bothering you, why are you calling me an idiot?

anyway, that’s my verbal diarrhea for today.

[Omar_Little]

What an absurd thread. Sure there are tons of religious folks that bash on and ultimately discriminate against declared atheists. And it’s not justified. I am a christian and I have plenty of atheist friends, for the most part we are very respectful of each others beliefs. But that’s in the real world. The majority of incidence atheist hating that occurs is on the inter-webs. But before you go and say “see, I told you!” That’s the kettle calling the pot black. There is just as much christian bashing and discrimination by atheists…and predominatly online…see this thread: The Southern Baptist Church is considering a name change: recommendations? - The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board as an example.

[Guinastasia]

Can’t I just hate everyone equally?

[D_Odds]

@Guinastasia

Can’t I just hate everyone equally?

Works for me.

[Qin_Shi_Huangdi]

Yes hating atheists is bigotry and I don’t condone it.

[antonio107]

I like many atheists, sing with them, played squash with them, dated a few and have even loved a few in my life. It happens when you study the liberal arts in Canada. I’m not one, FTR.

The atheists who rub me the wrong way are the ones who feel this desire to tell me what they are, when their views are NOT solicited. I never asked you because I don’t care, yet you felt some burning desire to tell me, just the same. That’s not something reserved strictly to them: replace “atheist” with “vegetarian,” “lesbian,” “evangelical Christian,” “Irish,” “Marxist,” “in a rock band…” The list goes on. We’ve never had lunch, i don’t care that you think eating meat is cruel. It’s none of your damn business whom i have or haven’t accepted as my personal saviour. It’s rude.

I miss the days when I could have a co-worker or casual acquaintance, make small talk with them, maybe go for coffee or a beer with them, and not know every detail of the inner workings of their mind. I find it distasteful and annoying. I obviously don’t speak for every theist, but I’ve never had someone after years of knowing them, suddenly tell me they’re an atheist, and find myself having a new found hatred of them!

[rat_avatar]

Hrm…cuz there is no reason us “uppity” atheists are vocal now…but it is always inconvenient when those who you prefer to subjugate speak up.

We are vocal because we are fighting a losing fight, local news casters get cheered for saying “they couldn’t trust an atheist”

This year less than 50% of the US as polled believed in evolution, so yes, we may be making noise now but this is because the cost of us being silent is huge.

Sure there are a few jerks out there but we are being told we are worthless and untrustworthy, when you can’t bring ANYTHING to the table to prove otherwise.

Think I’m kidding, quotes found online in less than 5 min.

George Bush: “I don’t know that Atheists should be considered as patriots, nor should they be considered as Citizens.”

John McCain: John McCain on anyone who's not his religion - YouTube

Joseph Lieberman: ‘The Constitution promises freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. We are, after all not just another nation, but “one nation under God.”’

Joseph McCarthy “Today we are engaged in a final, all-out battle between communistic atheism and Christianity.”

Monique Davis “What you have to spew and spread is extremely dangerous … it’s dangerous for our children to even know that your philosophy exists! This is the Land of Lincoln where people believe in God! Get out of that seat … You have no right to be here! We believe in something. You believe in destroying! You believe in destroying what this state was built upon.”

Al Gore: “I strongly believe in the separation of church and state. But freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion, there is a better way.”

Rep Alvin Holmes: “I’m against anything atheists represent because I believe in God.”

[Mijin]

@antonio107

The atheists who rub me the wrong way are the ones who feel this desire to tell me what they are, when their views are NOT solicited.

Yeah it’s those damn evangelical atheists I can’t stand. Why can’t they keep their beliefs to themselves, like theists do?

[Mangetout]

@Shodan

I don’t hate atheists for what they believe, but their tendency towards thread shitting is a little offputting.

I wouldn’t say they have a monopoly on that though.

In my experience, people who hate atheists for any other reason than something those specific atheists did, said, etc are hating because someone else told them they should, or because they’re just not very good at knowing when to stop generalising.