Could that not be a slightly simplistic take on the whole thing? i.e. that the best or right way to bring about some desirable outcome is by brute-forcing it? What about (for instance) if these “Christians” trust their God to exert the influence, while they provide the support, or who feel that hammering on someone’s face isn’t the best way to make them listen or accept your point?
I mean - most people simply despise spam and loathe spammers, even if the product being spammed really is wonderful.
In line with what Mangetout said, and don’t ask me why I’m having such a “saintly” day: the RCC’s co-patrons of missionary work are Francis Xavier and Thérèse of Lisieux, who definitely didn’t go to people’s homes and badger them about converting. Making her one of the patrons of missionary work is a reminder of the power of prayer, of leading through example, and of “the virtues of ordinary lives” - Xavi provides the “extraordinary lives” patronage, although he was more of a soapbox than bang-on-doors type.
I am an observant Jew, and I’d like to offer our view on this.
Yes, we certainly do care. But there are two independent reasons why we don’t proselytize. First, God does not have the same demands of everyone. We believe that there are plenty of acceptable religions for non-Jews. A non-Jew does not have to convert to Judaism to get to heaven. More details available on request.
But the second part is perhaps more important, that being the question of why we don’t try to influence the Jews to be better Jews, and the non-Jews to be better non-Jews. And the answer to that – as evidenced by many of the posts in this thread – is that active proselytizing often backfires, resulting in lots of resentment and few genuine converts. Thus, the Jewish approach is to simply set a good example and welcome anyone who shows an interest.
But I gotta tell ya, if I believed it, I couldn’t “play the long game”, as someone said upthread. There *is *no long game, when people I love could die any day, for any reason, and end up either in hell or simply not in the grace of God. I’d be in a sheer panic over that. Because, yes, proselytizing doesn’t work, which would mean I’d be utterly helpless, a sinner in the hand of an angry god, as someone with much better rhetorical skills than I once said.
Buddhists (well, most buddhists, there are more kinds of buddhists than there are kinds of potato chip) have a similar approach. In general the view is - stick with your own religion, see where it takes you. No need to become a buddhist now, you’ve got lots of time, just try to live a good life in this life.
My family went to a pretty strict Christian church when I was a kid, and this was my fear. I had a friend who didn’t believe in God, and according to that church, you had to accept Jesus as your savior or you were going to Hell forever. I was terrified for her, and tried to get her to go to church with me and so on. I think I eventually exhausted myself with my efforts - she went to a Vacation Bible School session with me one summer (probably just to hang out with me as well as make me shut up already), and when I saw that even the adults’ sessions didn’t get through, I figured there was nothing else I could do other than live a good example.
I’m just glad that at the time, I didn’t know anyone else who wasn’t professing to be other than Christian. Dealing with that kind of utter fear and worry over a friend’s fate was really anxiety-provoking.
People who play the fast game can’t really be trusting that God is in control, can they? Alongside the message, there’s supposed to be a measure of serenity and faith in the work of the Holy Spirit upon the hearts of men and women, as far as I understand it.
Not necessarily, if I understand your point correctly. Their message is that to be a good Christian, you must go out and spread the Word. You are obviously “hiding your light under a bushel” if you do not proselytize. Those who reject the message will be damned to Hell, as will those who never hear it (thus the need to send missionaries to faraway lands).
God being in charge doesn’t come into play here. It’s supposedly the job of his flock to spread the Word. If you’re overlooked in some faraway land, that’s the screwup of his lazy and sinful flock. If you’ve heard it but haven’t converted, that might either be Satan influencing you, or maybe some slacker Christian friend/relative just didn’t try hard enough.
No, they can’t. But if God IS in control of who is saved and who isn’t and people choosing Jesus isn’t important, then He’s just a right bastard anyhow for not picking Aunt Clara. And if God* isn’t* in control, then I’m panicking again. And loved ones who have lived good lives full of good deeds die every day without accepting Jesus as their personal lord and savior, meaning that they’re going to hell or not going to be in the presence of God. And this happens even though you (general you, not you you) may have set a good example and waited for God to send the Holy Spirit in their direction, so obviously that strategy doesn’t work, either. There’s no winning.
The only winning move is not to play, which is why I’m a pagan.
No, my point is entirely this: Interpreting ‘Spreading the word’ to mean getting in people’s faces and annoying them, is quite likely an absurdly selective, and not very useful simplification.
Well, I’ll concede that the obligation to aggressively proselytise does indeed spring quite naturally out of a cut-and-dried theology like that, but not all of Christianity views things in exactly that way (although the more vocal elements do, but that’s *why *they’re vocal)
I used to have a bunch of Joseph Campbell lectures on tape that I would listen to on headphones while out riding my bike, and during the course of one of those lectures, he said something that really struck me as getting to the root of the urge to proselytize. Basically he said that subconsciously, religious people know their beliefs are irrational. No matter how much they try to convince themselves otherwise, their subconscious minds are still able to see things rationally and see that they don’t add up. This creates a constant state of cognitive dissonance and anxiety which they try to resolve by convincing others to believe the same thing they do. Really, they’re just engaged in a continuous cycle of trying to convince themselves, but it never really works, especially since they can’t do it rationally and analytically, but have to rely on the same fallacies and wishful thinking that creates their subconscious tension in the first place. The more emotionally invested they are in their religion, the more desperate their attempts become. Proselytization is a symptom of doubt.
(Full disclosure: Christian, self-identifies as non-denominational but vaguely Reform Protestant leaning with regards to theology.)
Why proselytize?
God said so. Be witnesses, make disciples of all nations, let your light shine and all that. (There are all sorts of ways to do this. Personally, I happen to think walking the streets and handing out tracts willy nilly is not the best way to do things, but your mileage may vary.)
Genuine concern. Not just in not wanting my loved ones to go to hell. I’m always recommending things I like, find helpful, or are just good to others, so why not my faith?
Personal ego. We like being able to influence people. (Though in my experience trying to “convert” people that way tends to backfire.)
As far as Predestination goes, I see it this way: it’s only my job to get the message out, largely by the way I live my life, but I’m also supposed to be honest and eloquent when asked. It’s God’s job to save people. I’m not allowed to give up on anyone by rationalizing: “Oh, God didn’t choose them”, because I don’t know if that’s true or not. If you’d like to talk to me one on one about theology (i.e. via chat or PM), I’ll be more than happy to oblige.
Anyone who knows enough to complain that Christians aren’t doing enough to save them from Hell already knows enough to take the personal initiative to save themselves from Hell if they were actually concerned. Given that they’re not concerned, expecting Christians to come by and waste their time on them is pretty silly given that there’s people out there actually receptive to hearing the Word.
I’m not particularly religious, by the way, but I know enough to understand why being an atheist (or whatever) who’s put out by not being proselytized to by their religious friends is kind of ridiculous. Jesus states that if a town refuses to receive you, shakes its dust off your feet and move on, not to spend the next couple of months there wasting your time just to prove how really, really Christian you are.
I think Joseph Cambell’s subconscious must be a lot more rational than mine. Mine is usually spending its time trying to sabotage my efforts because it’s so very irrational, like a 2 year old having a temper tantrum, rather than being MORE rational than my conscious mind.
Then again, I’ve been heartily accused by many people of many faiths (and none at all) about being too much “in my head” and needing to be more “in my heart.” So maybe my conscious mind is more pointedly rational than others’…but I still wouldn’t trust my subconscious to choose a rational paint color, much less depend on it to see through religion rationally.
ETA: Shoot, I can’t seem to Quote a post on Edit. In Re: to Dio’s post above, of course.
