Oh, and I originally picked Australia at random. It could just as easily have been Denmark or Aruba.
You have the luxury of disapproval because you have a whole lot of people who do this “monkeysphere shit” for you by proxy. They are the latest in a whole long line of people who did it. I’d be more impressed by your clean hands if this weren’t the case.
Actually, it doesn’t make me feel better. Since I know what kind of person my mother is, it makes me very, very sad that there are others like her. And furthermore, as I said, I don’t believe that a ‘moral standard’ is what is applicable here… I believe it’s trying to rise above what- / where- ever we came from. In my humble opinion, that’s the whole point. Somewhat similar to raising children, I’d think. They’re not done so in a vacuum, I’m led to believe. So if the whole reason you teach them things is so that they can become good adults, who obviously don’t behave like children (or animals), then I would extrapolate that as humans we aim not to do what we did when we weren’t so (and trust me, I hate this word but can’t think of a better one) enlightened. That’s why certain things are no longer considered a good idea (like slavery) and others are hopefully being eradicated (discrimination against gays and lesbians). Obviously, your mileage varies.
As to changing your mind? I knew there was no chance in hell because God himself (who she purports to serve) could change my mother either. She’s irrational and damn proud of it, no matter what evidence shows her decisions to the contrary. Also, I don’t disapprove of you so much as I’m frightened of the idea of people who believe like you. What you all are capable of is a whole 'nother thread unto itself.
I’d rather deal with folks who give a shit about more than just their own backyard. Again, I’m thankful that at least it’s easy to view those who see things differently and happily steer clear.
If you are referring to our soldiers, I doubt they hold to the same “Protect what is mine at all cost, screw the rest of the world” philosophy as you. Though it occasionally happens, it is actually considered a bad thing to kill innocents during wartime.
Agreed. Not to mention that there’s sometimes, yanno, opposing viewpoints on war (I’m pretty sure I’ve heard of pacifism once or twice before, but it may be some new fangled concept that hadn’t gotten much play yet) and us peons are woefully unable to do much real change to it. Like, I’d be thrilled to move to say, anywhere out of the states, but I don’t have enough income to move into a different bedroom in our house, so I’m kind of stuck with how big policy plays out.
Yes, it is a bad thing, and yes, it happens in every war, without exception and will happen in any future war, without exception. If you support your country fighting any war, for any reason, then you automatically support the killing of innocents.
First, I am a peaceful man, and do not support any war. If innocents are purposefully killed in time of war, the people responsible should be prosecuted.
That’s precisely why I find it hard to support my country when we are in a war.
First of all, I respect your pacifism. I hope you can bring yourself to respect those of us who aren’t pacifists.
Second of all, saying you’ll prosecute the offenders is dodging the question, as is limiting it to innocents killed purposely. By approving a war (even a purely defensive one), the end effect will be that innocents will die at the hands of your armed forces, either on purpose or by accident, but just as dead either way. There’s no avoiding this.
By supporting the construction of highways, the end effect will be that innocents will die by accident. But no one says that advocating such projects is approval of the death of innocents. There appears to be a somewhat significant difference between inevitable accidental deaths which one attempts to minimize, and intentional murder of innocents.
No problem on my end-reread my first sentence.
By “monkeysphere shit” I meant the “only having human empathy for a handfull of people” thing you got going on. How that relates to me having the “luxury of disapproval” I don’t know. Are you referring to my parents? They’ve never stood between me and harm, not when it counted.
The police? I’m whole today in spite of the police. Ditto for the military.
So who do I have to thank, in your view?
Nevertheless, my hands *are *clean, and no-one need kill for it to be so. If anyone’s out there killing on my behalf, they’re lying.
I believe the idea in war - or at least in wars I would support - is that by going to war and accepting the inevitable deaths of innocents that will happen in even the most careful conflict, a greater amount of innocents is saved. Certainly, in practice, war amounts to protection of one’s own; i’m sure were the option “let them kill 1000 of our innocents, or we go kill 2000 of theirs”, option B would be damn popular. But, in my opinion anyway, a just war is that in which the goal is to protect the most innocents overall, not just to protect those I consider my own.
After all, justice extends equally across standards of innocence, not nationality. Morality of killing depends on guilt, not ethnicity. The death of any innocents is of course a terrible thing, as is any war - but in those cases where I would consider war necessary and just, it would be when there is a side protecting the overall innocents. And I would be happy to support such a side - regardless of whether it was “mine” or not.
This line always reminds me of the communist argument that a concern for free speech is a luxury bought by the oppression of workers.
Soldiers don’t intentionally target innocent children on purpose in order to save their loved ones. Do innocents get killed in wars? Sadly, yes. Thats still no justification for YOU or anyone else to say its a validation for you to kill all the germans, or nuke Australia to save your own child. Besides, this thread isn’t about soldiers or war, though it would make a good strawman to use.
MrDibble and I have had our disagreements on killing and moral responsibility in the past, but i have to agree with him here. I’m not a pacifist, but if you can justify killing innocent people so easily without empathy…well, I honestly feel sorry for you. I know you don’t care and all, but you see, thats empathy…as in caring about other human beings even though you’re not related to them or even know them.
Wow, it turns out something that contains the words “rape a baby” can make me laugh out loud. Would not have guessed.
This thread got repetitious a while back. I’ve said all I have to say on the topic twice already, so I’m done unless somebody brings something new to the discussion.
An interesting observation that I (and no doubt, many others far smarter than myself) have made is that, for many of history’s worst monsters, their formative years were spent under the influence of two parents who fulfilled diametrically opposite roles.
First, there is the parent that you describe above. Usually it is the mother. This parent works to fill the child with grandiose perceptions of their self-worth, often to the point of solipsism/narcissism.
Then, there is the other parent (usually the father). This parents works to destroy any concepts of dignity or self-worth in the child through relentless, on-going brutality.
This was certainly the case for both Hitler and Stalin, as well as for many mass murderers (e.g. John Wayne Gacy and Charles Whitman). Now, of course, most people who grew up in this sort of family situation didn’t go on to do great acts of evil. However, put a clinical psycopath into that setting as an infant, and you’d better watch out. Rage and entitlement are not a pretty mixture when acted upon…
Oh, and per the OP - I agree. In the hypothetical situation as presented in the original thread, those who would kill an indeterminate number of innocents to save their own are sociopaths and should be denounced as such.
I think it’s funny how no one stepped up to the plate and volunteered for that one.
Kill entire countries. Yep.
Strangle an innocent child. In a heart beat.
But rape a baby? And have everyone think I’m a sick pervert? No way, man!
When you set the bar low, moral standards are easy to live up to.