panache, were those the dudes who were into little boys rather then older teens? I did think that studies have shown that most same sex perpetrators of little boy molesation were hetro.
In the scientific research on the subject researchers are very specific in their terminology because there is a ‘unwarranted link between homosexuality and pedophilia’. Many people in our society believe all homosexuals will molest children if given the opportunity.
Heterosexual, homosexual and bisexual are simple bad terms to use to describe instances of child molestation.
This excerpt brings up some of the Kinsey research where they found most men who molest boys describe themselves as heterosexual.
(it won’t let me copy paste the section I want so I’m paraphrasing)
The Kinsey category of ‘predominately homosexual’ is missing and the numbers don’t at up to 100% so homosexuals might be under-represented there.
Anyway that would lead me to believe calling ‘male-male child molesters’ ‘homosexual child molesters’ is very inaccurate as 79% of them don’t identify as homosexual.
They seemed to make a big deal out of a boy being pre-pubescent. They equated that with “innocence.” And some of them expressed a strong aversion to a kid who had reached puberty.
I wish I could go back and ask them a few more questions.
Yeah, sounds like the folks on a certain notorious messageboard. Just reinforces my theory that pedophillia is about ocd fixtation, rather then real honest to god feelings for someone
A big problem inherent in surveying for this question is since sexual behavior between adults and children is a crime, very few adults who haven’t been “caught” are going to be willing to be open to taking a survey, so the population surveyed is going to involve a subset of the real population, and who knows if the population of “caught” child molesters is in fact representative of child molesters in general?
I remember reading somewhere that some time ago, perhaps the 1970’s, a law enforcement agency sent out pedophila surveys as a fishing operation. This one guy filled out the survey and said that he liked little girls but that he wasn’t currently involved with any, and well, the police harassed him for years trying to nail him with something.
I wanted to make the point that pedophiles who abuse boys aren’t necessarily gay in the usual sense (that they’d be sexually attracted to adult men over adult women) . . . but I think that’s been pretty well covered above.
Let me just add though that in many cases child molesters were molested themselves as children, which is how they got so screwed up to begin with. It may very well be that a man starts molesting boys because he’s acting out the abuse that he experienced himself as a boy. But had that same man never been abused, he might have gone on to only have sexual relationships with adult women.
Basically if you define “has sex with underage boys” as “gay” (a definition I disagree with), there’s not much else to say . . . but I think it’s important to understand that how one gets to be gay (entirely biology, in my view) and how one gets to be a pedophile (abuse, in many cases) are very, very different.
Of course not all pedophiles were abused themselves, but a lot of them were. And certainly people who have been sexually abused as children become pedophiles at a much higher rate, especially if they’ve never received appropriate treatment. (I don’t have a great cite handy for thus because I’m paraphrasing stuff my wife has told me – she is a therapist for victims of child molestation.)
Oh that’s true…and I know that Skeptic magazine “debunked” it by saying that the pedos were lying.
However, I think there’s something there…I mean for example it’s very common for women and girls who have been sexually attacked/raped to sexually act out to try to “heal”
It’s the same thing…the victims of child molestation feel helpless b/c someone manipulated their emotions, so they think that if they do that to a kid, they’ll heal.
That’s good…hopefully that prevents a hell of a lot of pedophiles.
Yeah, and just to add to that point, there’s more here than just adult pedophiles offering that up as an “excuse” after they got caught . . . A lot of kids who have been or are being molested act out against other kids when they’re still kids themselves. That’s sometimes the first indication that a kid is being molested, when they try to act out something sexual with another kid. (To be clear, I mean much more than just the “Wanna see my peepee” thing that I think is a phase a lot of kids go through when they’re discovering their bodies.)
So given that this is well-documented behavior for kids who’ve been molested, it shouldn’t be too surprising that the ones who don’t get caught and receive help early persist in that behavior into adulthood, even growing more bold about it.
That’s to say nothing of the cases where abuse actually happens within families and is passed on from generation to generation. I know someone through my wife* who as a young child was the victim (along with her brothers) of abuse (sexual and physical) from her father and grandfather, until she finally told someone at school and both father and grandfather ended up going to jail. Given that the grandfather was involved, it’s hard to imagine the father wasn’t also abused as a child (and god knows how far back it extends).
- An adult, not one of my wife’s patients of course
Yes. In all liklihood the majority of pedos are former kids who were molested but never got treated.
Now here’s a question. I know that acting out sexually for molested kids is very common…but how do you differentate between kids who were molested and are just acting that out, vs someone who is a budding sociopath?
I know someone who was “gang molested” I know the molester, and I remember getting the vibe that he was kind of creepy while growing up. (like Stepford Wives creepy, meaning he faked it well, but underneath he was really creepy)
:dubious: Unlike some of the posts ignorantly assume, heterosexual pedophyles (heterosexual men who sexually offend against pre-pubescent children) do not only offend against girls, homosexual men don’t just offend against boys, and biseuxal doesn’t offend against both. Heterosexual, homosexual, and bisexualism are labels identifying sexual preferences in adult relationships. However, you are asking what are the incident rates of homosexual men versus hetersexual men offending against pre-pubescent boys.:dubious:
First, pedophylia is a term applied to sexual offenders (SOs) who sexually offend against pre-pubescent children (typically children, boys in this case, age 11 and under).
Second, hebephilia is a term applied to SOs offending against minors that have already past puberty (typically after age 11).
Lastly, pedohebephilia is for offenders who offend both age ranges.
As for pedophylic men who offend against boys, the overwhelming majority of offenders identify as heterosexual men :eek: (I know, surprising, but true). However, when you talk about hebepholic men, it shifts to more homosexual men offend against post-pubescent males (older than 11).
In short, to answer your question (although I do not remember the exact numbers):
:rolleyes:AMONG MALE PEDOPHILES WITH MALE VICTIMS, THE MAJORITY ARE HETEROSEXUAL MALES. no guarantee, but I seem to recall it is in the mid/high 60 range, 65-68%
:rolleyes:AMONG THE MALE HEBEPHILES WITH MALE VICTIMS, THE VAST MAJORITY ARE HOMOSEXUAL MALES.
To make it simple, sexual orientation does appear to “match” with victim sex/gender in offenses against post-pubescent minors (typically those over 11 years of age). Which makes sense IF you know the pathways and causes for hebephilia.
However, pedophiles do NOT match their sexual orientation in their victim selection since the larger majority of pedophiles who have offended against boys are heterosexual men (and this is also true for female victims, heterosexual men comprise the larger majority of offenders in this group also). Again, this makes sense if you know the reason/pathways/causes for pedophilia.
FYI - I know all of this b/c my MA is in Forensic Psychology and I specialized to become a Licensed Sex Offender Treatment Provider (LSOTP) and took graduate courses in Sex Offending Theory and Treatment.
:smack:So don’t listen to INGORANCE from those who only “guess” their way through things; otherwise, they would still be telling you the sun revolves around the earth.:o
No, this is not true. There is no real correlation between past sexual abuse “causing” or “creating” sex offenders. Being a victim does not correlate with know offenders; however, some have been victims in their past.
There are a variety of correlated “psychological” factors in early child/young adults that appear to correlate with future offending. Narcissim and psycopathy scales are frequently used to determine these traits. However, the highest correlations for risk of sex offending is being male, white, single, 23ish-32ish years old, and some other factors. Yet, the most reliable risk predictor for offending, is any history or past incidents of sex offending.
So what are the reasons/causes/pathways for pedophillia.
Well the reason everyone is pussyfooting around the topic of gay=pedophiles is that there’s a assumption among some members of the social conservative community that gay=pedophile, given the opportunity. Which is why they oppose gay teachers. So of course gays generally want to fight that stereotype.
But as has been pointed out, gay ephebephiles are the majority of ephebephiles. The term “chicken hawk” comes to mind. So there may well be some cause for concern about gay high school teachers. It’s a potentially explosive situation, and leads to a very fast gay groupthink beat-down on the subject of gays and pedophilia if you are sloppy with your words.
Huh?
Not sure how the gay side of things works, but… once a female is sufficiently advanced in puberty, they don’t differ much from adults except in the eyes of the law. (IMHO there’s something that happens to the face, not just the body, somewhere around 14 to 18, that makes a girl look like an adult. But… that’s just me) This issue, danger, and reason for the laws, is that a, say, 15yo might look adult, but in a relationship with a 30yo or 40yo they are at a severe disadvantage, more easily maniputated and intimidated - hence the need for laws.
OTOH, there is a big big difference between an adolescent male and a mature adult.
I suppose they types attracted to pubescent have the same issues as the type attracted to pre-pubescent.
One article I read many years ago (lost the source) a psychologist suggested people ahve “sex maps”. Whether these are set by birth, or within the first few years, something “connects the dots” and this determines what excites a person.
So there are those attracted to boys, others to girls, others to men, others to women. Compare Michaelangelo’s David, Donatello’s - then compare Raphael’s or Da Vinci’s painting and drawing of women - it’s pretty obvious what appealed to each of these artists.
So the question is - are there any reasons these “attraction maps” happen and how they got chosen in each individual?
As for “boy attractors are straight men”, well, a relative of mine 2 decades ago left his wife for a younger man; Gerry Sandusky seemed to have a stable, ongoing marriage, despite targetting young boys. I think it’s more a matter of settling for relief and social expectation rather than a matter of dual preference. (IMHO) Guys who go looking for sex with adult guys are attracted to that type. Guys who aren’t, don’t. They can make a life, a straight mariage, all the time trying to deny or repress or hide their feelings unless given the opportunity (or in Sandusky’s case, seeking the opportunity) to occasionally act out. Nobody has a gay relationship as a “cover”.
Maybe not so powerful if you consider that most pedophiles seem to be men. Then the ratio of gay to straight would come into play barring the distinction you mention in your last sentence, so your evidence wouldn’t be very powerful if the person you were talking to understood fractions and knew something of the ratio of homosexual men in the wider population.
If there are 8 or 9 times the number of straight men in the general population as homosexual men, and men make up the vast number of pedophiles, then you would expect the ratio of girls to boys molested to be 8 or 9 to 1. It is not that high, so you are kind of proving the opposite of what you intend to prove until you take into account things like the average number of victims for the two types of predators etc… and then things get a good bit murkier.
That point had occurred to me too. If gays only occur in two to ten percent of the population, and do 30 percent of the child molesting, you have a much higher ocurrence among gays as a portion of the population than among straights. Also, as has been pointed out, ephebephiles, men who are attracted to teen boys, are way higher in number among gays than straights. So gays are a much higher risk for high school age boys than straights.
The whole thing is enormously complicated by the fact that there are still many people who do not think gays should be allowed to exist, and use anything they can find as a weapon against them, which makes the gay community really defensive about accusations of them “recruiting” straights or of being prone to ephebephilia. And especially since gay culture sort of tolerated their “chicken hawks” for a long time.
The line that matters of course, is not between gay/straight or even adult sexuality/ephebephilia/pedophilia, but between those who will have sex with underaged people and those who won’t, regardless of gender, under any circumstances. But try making that point stick. It’s quite a furball!
IMHO it’s more complicated than that. People have a “type”. Not just boys or girls or men or women - but as a cursory perusal of porn offerings wll show, there are all sorts - fatty chasers, (BBW), large breasts, Twiggy types, etc. for example. Where and why this preference appears is the $64,000 question.
(I assume) A guy who likes the adult male in leather chaps with chiselled abs is not attracted to young boys, any more than a guy who likes adult women is attracted to prepubescent girls. Whether people will have more than one “type” I leave to the experts and those with experience.
However, if someone is trying to hide or repress deviant desires, I suspect they are more likely to “cover” with a facade of an acceptable relationship - hence pedophiles are much more likely to appear to have “normal heterosexual tendencies” outside of their proclivities. And, of course, just because X turns someone on does not mean they are incapable of performing in other situations. One relative, as I mentioned, decided to leave his wife for a younger man after 30 years, during which they had 3 children and several miscarriages. She mentioned too that in her “first wives” support group there were a lot of wives whose ex came out of the closet after many years. Perhaps the only indication (I never asked) was a less enthusiastic performance?
The PROBLEM with #3, is that you are lumping GAY and STRAIGHT pedophilia into the SAME “BUCKET”.
GAY Pedophilia and STRAIGHT Pedophilia (while BOTH MORALLY WRONG) are JUST AS DIFFERENT as Gays and Straights (in “normal” [adult/adult] relationships).
THIS distinction DOES NOT assert whether there are MORE or LESS pedophiles in either group - but to assert that it’s ONE BIG GROUP (of pedophiles) is WRONG!
The “Gay Community” needs to OWN UP to the FACT that there are GAY Pedophiles - and to CONDEMN their actions - as MOST “Straights” do to pedophiles in general!
Name me a single non-pedophile gay person who denies that there are gay pedophiles, or who doesn’t condemn gay pedophilia.
Go ahead, name one.
Roddy