Perfect Adam and Eve choose to sin -- How?

[emarkp]

*Originally posted by AZCowboy *
For me, the most critical problem with Gen 1 through 3 is this issue of the punishment from eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You suggest my quote may be a translation error (I’m looking at King James Version, from blueletterbible.com, btw). I struggle with that explanation. Even with your interpretation/translation of “When you eat of it …”, the same problem exists, because when he did eat, he didn’t die.

Either God lied (and the Serpent told the truth), or he changed his mind regarding the punishment. Neither one supports the theory that God is perfect.

The other interpretation you offer, that spiritual death was immediate, is not supported by the text. That is what I mean by reading between the lines. You (or someone) is putting meaning in to support what you want it to say/mean, but those words are not there (you reference Gen 3:9, and I cannot find any word in that verse to support your position).

Here, I’m going to quote myself from the thread I linked to:

*Originally posted by emarkp *
Q: Did Adam & Eve die the day they ate the fruit?
A: Yes. And no.

See the LDS reference on Death, and you’ll get a good answer for the “two types of death” issue (note: while the LDS Bible Dictionary is informative, it is not normative–that is, it is not official doctrine, but it does provide references in scriptures for what it describes, and those are official). They died spiritually when they were cast out of Eden. And there are a few references to God’s time being one day for a thousand of our years. Since Adam died before 1000 years had passed (barely), he physically died that same day.

An interesting point is that the word “day” in Genesis is from the Hebrew word which doesn’t necessarily mean “day.” It can mean simply “a time” (and indeed, that’s how the text is rendered in Abraham as I quoted above). The “days” of creation could equally be rendered “creative time periods” of unspecified length. And the phrase “in the day that thou eatest thereof” does not necessarily mean that same 24-hour period that they partake of the fruit. In fact, we don’t know what the action represented by partaking of the fruit was–it might have required more than a literal day! In any case, partaking of the fruit precipitated mortality, and hence Adam and Eve began to die right away.

Q: Is dying a bad thing?
A: No. Dying is part of the plan God has given us, which (unconditionally) includes the Resurrection, and (conditionally) the glorification of all those children of God who choose to be with Him, even to be like He is.

Q: Did Adam and Eve know what they were doing?
A: Eve was told by Satan two things: that she wouldn’t die, and that she would know good and evil like the gods. Satan provided a half-truth–they would die. Eve acted on that information, and some LDS commentaries state that she chose to do so even though it would mean she would have to leave Eden. There is a difference (IMO) between “knowing of good and evil” and “knowing good and evil”. Before the Fall, A&E knew of it. After, they knew it through experience. So yes, I believe they knew what they were doing, at least as well as they possibly could know it. And in deciding it, they were ratifying the pre-mortal decision to pass through mortality.

Q: Did Adam (and Eve) sin?
A: As the link said, they are referred to “transgressing” not “sinning”. As innocents, they were unable to sin per se, but they could not avoid the consequences of their actions. Just as a child touching a hot stove may not be sinning, but he’ll still get burned.

Now:

Either God lied (and the Serpent told the truth), or he changed his mind regarding the punishment. Neither one supports the theory that God is perfect.

This is not the case. The serpent said that they would not die at all. Adam and Eve did die. Hence it is unreasonable to say that the serpent told the truth. He told a half-truth. Which is how the adversary typically works.

[AZCowboy]

emarkp, thanks for the information.

Does one really have to do those sorts of backbends to reconcile the King James Version with the Christian meaning to Genesis?

I mean, if “day” doesn’t mean “day”…How do we trust any of the words? Same with the word “death”, btw.

Simply asserting that they died spiritually is a perfect example of reading between the lines - those words are not there. Even if two definitions were common of the time, you are explicitly favoring one without any other support.

That’s rhetorical. Let me ask this: Any idea why an English translation of the original Hebrew word would choose “day”, if the English meaning wasn’t consistent with the Hebrew meaning?

In any case, I’m still missing something. Were Adam and Eve immortal before the fall? Or simply had the chance at immortality while they stayed in Eden? From Gen 3:22, it appears to me that A&E must have been born mortal. Then the punishment threatened by God didn’t make sense, as they were subject to die of natural causes anyway. The punishment he would have described would be to forgo the chance of immortality.

My translation didn’t include the Serpent saying that Eve would not die at all, just that she surely would not die, and the context was from eating the fruit.

Suggesting that the Serpent even told a half truth requires accepting a definition and use of the word “die” that is contrary to the common, standard, and typical meaning. Deriving another definition and use from later books of the Bible is uncomfortable, to say the least.

And again, even accepting two definitions means that the Serpent only told a half-truth if you attribute a specific meaning to a word you acknowledge is ambiguous.

If basic, critical words don’t mean what they mean, how can anyone read the KJV and find any value?

[AZCowboy]

Sorry, that post suffered from editing without proofreading. The comment “That’s rhetorical” was intended to reference the question, “How do we trust any of the words?”

[Greensabre]

Uh oh, here we go into word interpretation again…

This is a side note, not the main point, so lets try to stick to the original discussion, maybe…

You must remember that the Bible has been around for a LONG time. How many times do you think it’s been translated? And even so, there are still MORE translations out there, including “new translation” versions that dumb down the text. I hate those kind. So maybe, way back when, “Time” might have been easier to be translated as “day.” Or maybe the hebrew word, whatever it is, couldn’t be directly translated into whatever language (such as the french word “betize” (spelling?)). Anyway…

I think it is common sense to assume that A&E were immortal. There really is no specific time given to how long they were in the garden. Adam had to name all the beasts, remember? Part of the problem is when you read it, it seems like the whole thing took place in the time it takes to read it.

make earth
make Adam
make Eve
eat apple

Sorry to reply to that one, even though it was directed to emarkp.

[emarkp]

I mean, if “day” doesn’t mean “day”…How do we trust any of the words? Same with the word “death”, btw.

You must not be very familiar with translated documents. The word “day” doesn’t appear in OT manuscripts, because it wasn’t written in English. Indeed, even English usage has changed significantly from the time that the KJV was translated.

You could compare different translations (of say Gen 3:22) but I have translated some documents, and it’s not an easy task. If you’re really digging for what a document means, you have to go to the original language. This is really a simple idea.

Now, I would argue that because of these issues, a (real) modern prophet is the only reliable way to resolve such differences. I believe that we LDS have that, and hence while it is interesting to look at the translation issues, we have continuing revelation to make sure we’ve got the understanding right. Which is why in the other thread I quoted LDS scripture which shed more light on the subject. If you don’t accept that, then that’s another issue.

[AZCowboy]

Greensabre, everyone is able to respond, regardless to whom it was addressed, and I appreciate your perspective.

I just assumed that A&E were mortal due to Genesis 3:22, which reads:

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever

It sounds to me like the punishment was being removed from Eden, and one of the concerns is that if man remained in Eden, they would eat from the tree of life and live forever. This implies that if they didn’t eat from the tree of life, they wouldn’t live forever, right?

emarkp, I can surely see a benefit of LDS, having a modern prophet! It does help with the translation issues. For me, though, it has a bit of a recursion problem.

You are correct, I have little experience in dealing with translated documents. But I think I have some appreciation for the challenges it could present.

Thanks for the link to the BibleGateway.com translations - that’s helpful. Interestingly, there is very little difference between the versions for this particular passage (which doesn’t help resolve any ambiguity).

I do appreciate the LDS links, and I’d be interested to know if other Christians generally agree with that same interpretation.