Persuade me that deafness & hearing impairment are not best thought of as disabilities.

[Farmer_Jane]

Research on:

Deaf touch
Adult ferrets & re-wiring

The findings provide researchers and clinicians with insight into how the adult brain retains the ability to re-wire itself on a large scale, as well as the factors that may complicate treatment of hearing loss with hearing aids or cochlear implants.

You know how if you have a car issue and you describe what it ‘sounds like’ to the mechanic? Well, deaf can be mechanics, too - they ‘feel’ what’s wrong with the car. I have a congenital deaf friend who pretty much breathes autos.

Deaf-blind & touch

This project was originally inspired by earlier studies Reed did on the Tadoma technique, a communication method taught to deaf-blind people. Practitioners of that method hold their hands to someone’s face while they are talking, allowing them to feel the vibrations of the face and neck.

Reed’s study, done about 20 years ago, showed that the deaf-blind subjects could successfully understand speech with this method – especially if the other person spoke clearly and slowly.

“We were inspired by seeing what deaf-blind people could accomplish just using the sense of touch alone,” says Reed.

Deaf sight - Covered that, not to mention the processing that enables Deaf to recognize other Deaf by ‘sight’ alone.
Deaf smell - I’ve seen studies on deafblindness, but smell is part of the limbic system - which is related to memory. You know, you smell something and are instantly ‘taken back’ to a moment? (I understand this is anecdotal, but I don’t know of any Deaf who don’t cook well/aren’t serious eaters re: taste.)

It’s no secret that you can develop certain senses better than others. I’m pretty sure if you found yourself in the middle of the Amazonian jungle, some local tribes would find you pretty disabled as you would not be sensitized to their world (kind of like when the natives met the Europeans).

Deaf people naturally grow up utilizing their other senses (and thus developing appropriate neurological responses) more efficiently. I think I’ve said this many times. There are many things about human senses and conditions that we don’t quite know for sure yet, but it’s not a surprise that deaf people can have auditory hallucinations.

All I asked was for you to open up a little bit. I’m not just spewing shit. I’m talking about neurology here.

[Farmer_Jane]

@StarvingButStrong

I’ve been thinking about the statement that Deaf people can do everything but hear.

It’s true in a way, but hearing is the major way non-deaf people communicate. Yeah, it wouldn’t be a problem if everyone knew sign language, but the vast majority of people don’t.

I can’t think of many ‘common’ jobs that don’t require the ability to communicate with co-workers or clients or bosses or whoever. (By common I simply mean ones that lots of people are employed as. If your job is deciphering a newly discovered script, you probably don’t need to talk to many people. But there are millions of store clerks for every one cloistered researcher.)

In fact, of the various jobs I’ve had in my life, the only one I think I could have done just as well if I couldn’t hear was the summer I spent as a housekeeper in a nursing home. All the others, well, some things could have been accomplished (though more awkwardly) by relying on written communications, and but other tasks would simply have had to be pushed over to hearing coworkers.

You’re talking about a linguistic disrupt. It is true that deaf people in a hearing world are disadvantaged: communication can be difficult. But that only makes them disabled in a hearing world. So when you think about it, really: what with technology, the abilities of deaf to ‘do everything but hear’, the fact that deaf can be just as smart as you, the fact that sign languages are natural, complete and can express everything you can - well, it’s kind of no wonder that some Deaf are like :dubious:, What do you mean I’m disabled? I’m perfectly fine!

This was before the onslaught of the internet, iPhones, TV, and radio, btw. Pre-linguistic deafness has dropped in the ‘modern’ era thanks to eradication of certain childhood diseases.

@Marley23

You weren’t. Even if the “sixth sense” comment was not intended to be taken literally, you’ve continued to make the same unsupported point about deaf people having superior senses.

What part do you disagree with, Marley? That your senses develop according to your environmental needs? Sensionerual deafness in old age is clearly more harmful than early onset deafness. The adult brain can ‘re-wire’ itself in many ways, but not fully.

You are not born a fully developed adult or even with the sensory abilities of a five year old child. Your nervous system -and sensory perceptions - develop in the early years.

I’ve said repeatedly that I understand this. I still think deafness is still a disability.

**
I don’t deny it is a medical disability any more than my epilepsy is. But I’m most certainly not best to be thought of as ‘disabled’ any more than the Deaf.** And I am not inferior a neurotypical adult. I respond differently (sometimes more positively) than they do in certain environments.

What the hell do you want a cite for? I asked you a simple question about your own opinion.

You don’t seem to understand my opinion, since your comment after what my ‘opinion’ was was incorrect. I’m not going to do this if you continually misrepresent what I say. I hate debating with you because I’m constantly having to combat this.

Deaf people can drive, perform sports, play music, think, read, create, etc. They can hunt, swim, dance, play games, make jokes.

They don’t hear. So what? Clearly if it were such a huge deal, then deaf would be, well, a little dumb, no?

[Marley23]

@CitizenPained

What part do you disagree with, Marley? That your senses develop according to your environmental needs?

I disagree that those need-based developments can fully offset a major deficit like the loss of hearing or eyesight, and I don’t think you’ve demonstrated that the offsets are that significant, although I am sure they can be helpful. I understand the brain can compensate for shortcomings. That’s well-established.

Sensionerual deafness in old age is clearly more harmful than early onset deafness. The adult brain can ‘re-wire’ itself in many ways, but not fully.

And deafness in old age makes up most instances of deafness and major hearing loss. So most people with hearing loss can’t compensate as well as the people you are talking about.

I don’t deny it is a medical disability any more than my epilepsy is.

So after all this, you agree it’s a disability? You just don’t like saying the people are disabled?

You don’t seem to understand my opinion

I asked you what your opinion is. Is it your opinion that we are discriminating against deaf people or saying they are inferior if we do not agree with all of your positions?

Deaf people can drive, perform sports, play music, think, read, create, etc. They can hunt, swim, dance, play games, make jokes.

I never said they couldn’t.

They don’t hear. So what? Clearly if it were such a huge deal, then deaf would be, well, a little dumb, no?

I understand that people live with it just fine, but I do think it’s kind of a significant obstacle, in fact. What’s dumb is this wordplay. Trying to write off the whole thing with “So what?” isn’t very impressive either.

[Farmer_Jane]

@Marley23

I disagree that those need-based developments can fully offset a major deficit like the loss of hearing or eyesight, and I don’t think you’ve demonstrated that the offsets are that significant, although I am sure they can be helpful. I understand the brain can compensate for shortcomings. That’s well-established.

So what deficits do the deaf have? I mean, other than they can’t hear?

And deafness in old age makes up most instances of deafness and major hearing loss. So most people with hearing loss can’t compensate as well as the people you are talking about.

Strawman. They never were. So what’s your point? Oh, you don’t have one!

So after all this, you agree it’s a disability? You just don’t like saying the people are disabled?

If you actually read the thread, you’d see that I never disagreed on the medical definition of disability and what I just said upthread was a repeat of what I’ve already stated.

Is this really how you argue?

I asked you what your opinion is. Is it your opinion that we are discriminating against deaf people or saying they are inferior if we do not agree with all of your positions?

Apparently both.

I understand that people live with it just fine, but I do think it’s kind of a significant obstacle, in fact.

Obstacle to what?

[Farmer_Jane]

Look, if you took all the prelinguistic deaf in the world and stuck them on their own island, they’d still function as well as we do. They think, talk, walk, build stuff, have sports, have arts, have government. No problem.

If you took all the armless people in the world and put them on their own island, they’d have some logistical issues.

If you took all the people with Down syndrome and stuck them on their own island, well, you get the idea.

People who don’t have a sense of smell also have a disability. People who are depressed also have a disability. So why do we think that deafness is ‘best thought of as’ a disability? Deaf implies another linguistic feature. Why is that a disability?

Deafness means you can’t hear. The ‘can’t hear’ part is a deprivation of one of the senses. That’s the disability part.

Deafness is also another linguistic category. That in itself is not a disability. The neurological functioning of a deaf child is not to be considered disabling.

Deafness should be thought of a disability like cleft chin and palate, lack of smell (yeah, that exists), club foot, epilepsy, an extra finger, people who are under 4 feet 8 inches, whatever. Thousands of disabilities exist.
**
But my original point in the very beginning of this thread is that the attributes you give to deaf people are incorrect.**

Deafness is only a disability because hearing people define it as such.

[AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet]

And yet the RNID spends so much money trying to prevent future hearing loss and deafness. Why do you suppose they do this if deafness isn’t a disability to be avoided if possible?

Because most deafness is old age/late deafened deafness. Just like most people in wheelchairs aren’t CP or childhood muscular dystrophy kids, and most blindness is aging related. The majority of people with disabilties aquirred it. They see their conditions as being nonfunctional, and they subscribe to the model of “sick people trying to get well.”

Whereas if you are born physically or sensory disabiled, you can ADAPT to it and live with it. I know it’s hard for people here to understand…but it’s not living as thou you’re missing a sense. Yes, CIs and hearing aids can give a decent approxmentation of sound, but even with the best hearing aids, I cannot hear like a hearing person. I hear like a hard of hearing one. I don’t miss hearing because I never have heard normally. Just like my friend Kevin doesn’t miss his sight b/c he has never seen normally.

[Marley23]

@CitizenPained

So what deficits do the deaf have? I mean, other than they can’t hear?

That’s the only one we’re talking about. The lack of hearing is a disability.

Strawman. They never were.

I have no idea what you’re saying here. My point is that people have argued throughout this thread that because deaf people can compensate, they do just fine and there’s no reason to consider them disabled. In point of fact, that argument focuses on the minority of deaf people who are most able to compensate.

Apparently both.

It was yes or no question, so “both” is an interesting answer.

Obstacle to what?

I’m saying it’s an obstacle that makes living more difficult.

[Marley23]

@CitizenPained

Apparently both.

Maybe my answer was too short. Saying that it’s a disability does not mean deaf people are inferior, it means a lack of hearing is disabling. I don’t think this description comes anywhere close to discriminating against deaf people.

[Czarcasm]

@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet

I know it’s hard for people here to understand…but it’s not living as thou you’re missing a sense.

Son of a…Yes, it damn well is. You are missing a sense-the sense of hearing. You are living as though you are missing the sense of hearing. You don’t buy the standard alarm clock that rings-you buy the one that vibrates and/or has flashing lights. You don’t listen to the car radio on the way to work. You don’t hear car horns or sirens so you look in the mirrors more often. There are hundreds of ways you have to compensate for the sense that you are missing in a society that is primarily designed for the ability to hear. In the deaf, that very common ability has been disabled for one reason or another, so the deaf compensate as best as they can, but this is not the same as eliminating the original disability. It is adapting to the disability.

[Marley23]

@CitizenPained

Look, if you took all the prelinguistic deaf in the world and stuck them on their own island, they’d still function as well as we do. They think, talk, walk, build stuff, have sports, have arts, have government. No problem.

[…]

Deafness is only a disability because hearing people define it as such.

No, it’s a disability because the vast majority of people can hear, and that’s incorporated into their lives and the society people have built. I’m sure you’re correct that a society built by deaf people from the ground up they would design it differently and it wouldn’t incorporate features that rely on hearing. I also think that would happen in a society built by people who are blind or people who can’t walk. I think this was discussed a couple of pages ago, and I have to admit I’m still wondering why this thread was bumped. I’m not seeing anything new here and there’s not much point in repeating ourselves.

@Czarcasm

Son of a…Yes, it damn well is. You are missing a sense-the sense of hearing. You are living as though you are missing the sense of hearing.

What she’s saying is that it’s not something she’s constantly aware of. She’s not consciously compensating for it from moment to moment. Yes, that’s adapting.

[Farmer_Jane]

@Czarcasm

Son of a…Yes, it damn well is. You are missing a sense-the sense of hearing. You are living as though you are missing the sense of hearing. You don’t buy the standard alarm clock that rings-you buy the one that vibrates and/or has flashing lights. You don’t listen to the car radio on the way to work. You don’t hear car horns or sirens so you look in the mirrors more often. There are hundreds of ways you have to compensate for the sense that you are missing in a society that is primarily designed for the ability to hear. In the deaf, that very common ability has been disabled for one reason or another, so the deaf compensate as best as they can, but this is not the same as eliminating the original disability. It is adapting to the disability.

It’s hard to miss things you’ve never had.

I adapt to the fact that I live in a cold weather climate. My climate doesn’t disable me.

[Farmer_Jane]

@Marley23

No, it’s a disability because the vast majority of people can hear, and that’s incorporated into their lives and the society people have built. I’m sure you’re correct that a society built by deaf people from the ground up they would design it differently and it wouldn’t incorporate features that rely on hearing. I also think that would happen in a society built by people who are blind or people who can’t walk. I think this was discussed a couple of pages ago, and I have to admit I’m still wondering why this thread was bumped. I’m not seeing anything new here and there’s not much point in repeating ourselves.

But deaf people naturally ‘adapt’. And with technology, deaf should be considered less disabled than ever, right?

Deaf people are about as disabled as gay people.

[Marley23]

@CitizenPained

But deaf people naturally ‘adapt’.

Of course. Who doesn’t?

And with technology, deaf should be considered less disabled than ever, right?

That’s fine with me. Pages and pages ago, I said that advancing technology probably does threaten deaf culture because fewer people may be permanently or totally deaf. I don’t think that’s a bad thing and I think anything that allows them to live their lives the way they want to is a good thing.

Deaf people are about as disabled as gay people.

That doesn’t follow from anything you’ve said here. What can’t gay people do?

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Marley23

Of course. Who doesn’t?
That’s fine with me. Pages and pages ago, I said that advancing technology probably does threaten deaf culture because fewer people may be permanently or totally deaf. I don’t think that’s a bad thing and I think anything that allows them to live their lives the way they want to is a good thing.
That doesn’t follow from anything you’ve said here. What can’t gay people do?

I expect she’ll say “reproduce,” so I’ll cut that off at the pass by pointing out that I’m bailing on a lesbian friend’s baby shower next weekend.

[Farmer_Jane]

@Marley23

That doesn’t follow from anything you’ve said here. What can’t gay people do?

Be straight.

[Farmer_Jane]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

I expect she’ll say “reproduce,” so I’ll cut that off at the pass by pointing out that I’m bailing on a lesbian friend’s baby shower next weekend.

Is this an example of adaptation when one is a deviant form the norm?

Or did one of your lesbian friends get knocked up the traditional way?

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@CitizenPained

@Marley23

That doesn’t follow from anything you’ve said here. What can’t gay people do?

Be straight.

I’m sorry if this is offensive, but that last remark is simply idiotic. Being straight in not something one does; it is something one is. That is, it is an identity, not an action. Lesbians and gays can have sex with opposite sex partners, just as straight people can have sex with same-sex partners.

@CitizenPained

Is this an example of adaptation when one is a deviant form the norm?

Or did one of your lesbian friends get knocked up the traditional way?

One does not ask a woman one is not married to how she came to be pregnant. But I know lesbians who have adopted, used in vitro, or recruited male friends to make the beast with two backs for the purpose.

[Marley23]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

I expect she’ll say “reproduce,” so I’ll cut that off at the pass by pointing out that I’m bailing on a lesbian friend’s baby shower next weekend.

That’s what I was expecting, and yes, it’s flat wrong and always has been. I’ve never suggested (or believed) that deaf people don’t lead worthwhile lives the same as people who can hear, but that doesn’t mean deafness is just like being blonde or lefthanded or gay in terms of its impact on one’s life. I thought CitizenPained disagreed with me (post #273) when I said she was comparing those things, but I guess not.

[Marley23]

@CitizenPained

Be straight.

Then we’re all disabled: we can’t be things we aren’t. That applies to everybody, so we can throw it out as a non-starter.

[Farmer_Jane]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

One does not ask a woman one is not married to how she came to be pregnant. But I know lesbians who have adopted, used in vitro, or recruited male friends to make the beast with two backs for the purpose.

So they suffered some unspeakable horror for the sake of becoming pregnant? :eek: You mean that it’s okay to view sex as an act of child-making and not one of PLEASURE?

Egads !

My point is that lesbians and gays were considered ‘defective’ because they weren’t attracted to members of the opposite sex. Without reproductive technology, gays and lesbians would not be having children or would be participating in horribly uncomfortable and potentially traumatizing sex to do it.

(After all, I don’t know of any straight men who’d get allow a penis up his anus to reproduce.)

In time, the world will see Deaf less and less as ‘disabled’ and more as ‘so what?’ Provided they can get over their insecurities and misconceptions, of course.