Pet Wolves

/ small hijack in reply

DrDeth, the problems are not with ethical breeders or owners. (Boy, there’s a *duuuhhh * statement!) You and your F3 are not problematic. Neither are ethical owners of purebreds, or F2s or F1s. And Bengals are not the only feline hybrids in the trade. In point of fact, our group and Florida’s regulators have been rather diligent in maintaining the right of ethical owners to obtain and maintain such animals. Please do not think that we are working at cross purposes! Still, problems remain.

In the case of canine hybrids the issues are often human safety, and commonly animal cruelty. Human safety can indeed be a problem with escapes, and more so with visitors to the location where the animals are kept. Owners tend to discount the potential danger, arguing that the animal is “just like a big dog”. Of course it is not, and can exhibit wild aggressive / defensive behaviors literally at the drop of a hat. That’s the safety side.

The cruelty issue comes about when the owner grows disabused of the “big dog” idea himself and becomes afraid of his own animal. Stalking behaviors or other aggressive displays may give the owner legitimate concerns. At that point the animal is often locked into some kind of cage or dog run, deprived of social interaction, and perhaps otherwise neglected or even abused.

With felines, the greatest issue we deal with revolves around, not the potential danger from the cat itself (which we agree to be miniscule), but the possibility of transmission of rabies. And rabies is a concern, since many of these cats are maintained at least part of the time in outdoor cages where exposure to rabies vector wild animals is possible. Scenario goes:

owner has a hybrid, exact percentage of wild greater than zero but otherwise irrelevant

cat bites someone outside the family (a visitor or, extremely rarely, after an escape)

since no manufacturer of rabies preventative vaccine claims either safety or efficacy in wild species (use of the vaccines is considered to be an “extra-label usage” which veterinarians are allowed to provide but which Florida law does not grant the same recognition of immunization as it does to “labeled usages”), Florida Health Department requires the animal be tested for rabies, which of course requires it be euthanized

owner refuses surrender, claims the cat is domestic

In the past, our fish and game agency attempted to use a kind of morphological test to define wild versus mostly wild versus truly domestic, for purposes of regulation. But there is no completely reliable set of parameters that will perform this separation in every case. Courts would not uphold it. Health department could not enforce its demands for surrender of such animals because it was impossible to prove (in a legal sense) that the animal was not domestic, as long as the owner maintained such to be the fact.

Bite victims are forced to take the expensive and still rather nasty post-exposure rabies series (or gamble with their own lives).

And having successfully resisted the attempt to classify his pet as *wild * for purposes of the Health Department, owner now goes further and insists that his animal can no longer be regulated by fish and game either! Which of course makes the animal no longer subject to even minimal cage and enclosure construction standards. Or anything else of a regulatory nature.

So Florida has adopted what might be thought of as the “duck” system. If it looks like, quacks like, craps like, then it will be considered to be…

For purposes of regulation, any wild/domestic hybrid in Florida (feline or canine) will be regulated at the most restrictive level for the species involved. So a Jungle Cat / domestic cat hybrid will be regulated as a Jungle Cat regardless of percentage of ancestry.

Hope this clarifies the matter!

/end hijack, with apologies

Over the years I have met a few people with wolf hybrids. These were either people who were new owners and looking for veterinary care, or they had the animals for a while and were trying to get rid of them. I’ve never had the pleasure of meeting a long time, content owner.

As far as veterinary care is concerned, many/most veterinarians will not treat them due to legal/liability issues. Personally, I stopped seeing wolf hybrids about 10 years ago. Since then, I have spoken with a few owners who were unable to find veterinary care. I explained why I was not willing to treat the animal, but I have never given in and put myself at risk.

For more on the rabies vaccine concern as it applies to wolf hybrids:
http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1B2GGFB_enUS233&hl=en&q=wolf+rabies+vaccine&btnG=Google+Search

I think you’re talking about the Czech Wolfdog: Wiki article. CsV history: http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/44.html

So, I’ve wondered, what is it about Rabies that keeps you from being able to detect it with a blood test? This is coming from the guy who got a D in intro to biology, and who is still reeling from the discovery that there are now 6 animal kingdoms, and that viruses are still considred some sort of weird zombie parasite (I mean, they’re not alive, yet they eat and reproduce, right?)

Rabies is a neurotrophic virus. The organism travels along nerves to the CNS or salivary glands. Serology does play a role. In the UK, travel into Great Britain is allowed only after showing blood tests that help confirm the animal’s protected (vaccinated) state.

vetbridge or others, please correct me if I am wrong.

The blood test mentioned provides a serological titre, confirming that there are rabies antibodies present. The presence of antibodies confirms that the immunological system (of the tested animal) was challenged, presumably by a rabies vaccination. Documentation of the innoculation is required. And there is a six month waiting period (after the blood test) before the animal can be moved. (see vetbridge’s link)

An antibody titre can also be present if the animal (or a person) was exposed by an actual bite. But in humans (and most other animals, including dogs), a sufficient level of antibody to reliably test positive in such an instance is typically present only after sufficient time has elapsed for the disease to become established. At which point the question becomes moot-- the person or animal will die. This is the reason for the six month waiting period-- to separate animals who are antibody-positive due to vaccination from any that may be antibody-positive because of actual disease. The later will be dead before the six months elapse.

This is quite different from confirming that a given animal or person has been exposed to (“infected with”) rabies from, say, a bite by a rabid animal that has no history or cannot be tested.

Worldwide, rabies kills approximately 30,000 to 40,000 people a year. Once symptoms have begun, the incidence of survival is zero. (Actually there is that single case in, where? Michigan? of a girl who lived after displaying symptoms and undergoing some novel treatment regimen. But that is still one out of hundreds of thousands, cumulatively millions. And the same regimen has not been successful in several other cases similarly treated after the first. There was a thread that included this discussion, but I can’t seem to find it.) Rabies is “treated” by prevention only. The expensive and painful anti-rabies “treatment” is a prophylaxis, not an actual treatment of the active disease. And, if not begun before symptoms develop, it is ineffective. As stated above, mortality once symptoms develop is 100% (minus one individual).

So a serological test is kind of the classic “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence” scenario. If you are bitten, but test negative, are you negative because you are truly not infected? Or only because insufficient time has elapsed for your infection to trigger your body to develop enough rabies antibodies to be found in a serological test?

Same applies to the animal that has done the biting. Negative serological tests cannot be considered sufficiently reliable, especially for a disease that is 100% fatal to untreated victims. And the treatment has to start early (since it is really a preventative) to be effective. You just cannot afford to wait and see, if the animal that did the biting is available.

Microscopic examination of brain and spinal cord tissue will show certain characteristic, irreversible changes in a rabies-infected animal. These can be seen even well before the animal begins to show clinical symptoms of the disease, and also well before serological tests become reliable.

This is the reason for sacrificing the animal that performed the bite.

^CannyDan, excellent synopsis.

Thanks! Especially when given by a professional in the field.

A very few breeders have a single Asian leopard cat. The rest all breed from Bengal cat stock.

wiki:Bengal cat - Wikipedia
*Genetics

Bengal cats are a hybrid breed developed over several generations through a program of selectively crossbreeding domestic cats, possessing desired features, with Asian Leopard Cats and ALC hybrids. In the first three generations, males are almost always infertile, though there have been the occasional, but rare F3 studs capable of reproduction. Early generation females are typically fertile, and responsible for continuing the genetic contributions of the ALC to the next generation.

The modern SBT Bengal gene pool contains genes sourced from many varieties of domestic cats - mainly Egyptian Maus, American Shorthair, Abyssinian, Ocicat, and domestic shorthaired cats. It is commonly accepted that the breed was developed by Jean Mill of California in the 1970s; today, Bengal breeders exist throughout the world. Many breeders are presently working to develop specific characteristics in the breed, often by backcrossing foundation cats with particularly vivid markings. The ALC comprises several subspecies, and consequently, they can have considerable variations in their appearance.

The first three filial generations (F1 - F3) of these hybrid animals are referred to as the “foundation” generations. A Bengal cat with an ALC parent is called an F1 Bengal, short for first filial. An F1 then bred with a domestic male yields an F2, or second filial. Kittens from an F2 female and another domestic cat are then termed F3. Kittens from a subsequent F3 mating with a domestic are F4s. The F4 and later generations are considered domestic cats, are designated as Stud Book Tradition (SBT) Bengals, and can be shown and registered. Any SBT Bengal is at least four generations removed from the ALC. Founders (F1-F3) are typically reserved for breeding purposes or the specialty pet home environment.
*

How does being bit by a F3 Bengal cat differ from being bit by any generic kitty?

I mean, if the cat is claimed to be domestic, then follow procedures as if domestic.

I don’t see how having a tiny trace of possible wild forebear (which any mutt kitty can have) makes the case any different.

I mean, you guys do know that Felis bengalensis is so very close to Felis silvestris that the two not uncommonly breed together in the wild? And that there is no known difference in how they react to rabies or the vaccine?

Killing a Bengal cat because it may have rabies while a generic moggy is considered 100% safe is completely foolish and not backed in any way by science.

Your rule means that all Felis silvestris are wild as they are all fairly recently descended from Felis silvestris lybica, the Desert Wildcat.

And that *all *Dogs, Canis lupus are also wild, as they are the same species as the Wolf. Yes, a Pug is 100% wolf.

Bad Science. :rolleyes:

Wisconsin. The treatment used is now called the “Wisconsin Protocol”. The girl involved is the only person in history known to have survived rabies without having the vaccination.

There have been a few cases of people who received treatment, went on to show symptoms anyway, and survived but even then death is the usual outcome.

Docs would really, really like to know how the Wisconsin girl survived and how to reproduce that success.

If I understood CannyDan correctly, it’s different in that the manufacturers of vaccine say clearly and explicitly if it ain’t 100% Felis silvestris then as far as we’re concerned our vaccine might be tap water - cross-breed with anything you like, but expect the vaccines not to work.

That then means that the bureaucrats are in a bind. If they recognize ‘off-label’ use as legitimate, sooner or later someone is going to have some weird-ass mutant ten-way hybrid animal where a vaccination does not take and which will bite someone, who will then die in agony from rabies, at which point the bureaurats will get their arses sued clean off by the family. So they have to presume that any beastie which the vaccine manufacturers will not vouch for must be cut up and tested in a bite scenario.

I suppose they could establish some protocol whereby non-standard animals could be vaccinated and then some serological work done to certify that the vaccine did take and the animal is now rabies-free, but I guess they don’t want to go through all that hoopla given the relatively small numbers of cases involved - or it may be that the test manufacturers won’t sign off on their tests working reliably on hybrids, or that they don’t want to take the risk of signing a certificate in error. From what I hear of the american legal system, it does not surprise me that no-one wants to go out on a limb where rabies in humans is concerned. Similarly, it’s not exactly unusual for government agencies to be somewhat resistant to adapting to the wishes of a minority of individuals who want to do things differently. Which is IMO another reason why people should stick to owning existing domestic species (of which there are a superfluity) rather than seeking out ever-more-exotic animals.

Oh, my god. I had no idea! Really, what the hell? Why aren’t we vaccinating people against this, at least in places where the risk is high? Is the human vaccine much more expensive than the animal one?

One slight nit-pick, the treatment is not painful. Well, no more painful than a shot in the arm. Not as bad as a tetnus shot. I had one about 20 years ago before a trekking trip to Tibet. Back then it cost about $50 for a shot. IIRC, I was warned if bit by anything suspect to get back to civilization and start a series of the same shots within a week. It was not a “vaccine” but more of a immunity booster. Not sure if what they administer now is a real “vaccine”, eg, once you get the shot you won’t get rabies for a period of years/lifetime.

This was different than when I was a kid 40 years ago, and a classmate got bit by a skunk. It was 21 very painful daily shots in the stomach.

I’ve heard that you have to have 21 shots in the stomach if you’re bitten by a rabid animal. Is this true?Not any more. For over 20 years now the recommended post-exposure regimen in the United States has been administration of human rabies immune globulin (HRIG) as soon as possible after the bite, half to be injected into the tissues surrounding the bite itself and half into the hip. Then 5 doses of vaccine are given in the deltoid muscle (the outer portion of the upper arm) on days 0, 3, 7, 14, and 28. In other words, if a person is bitten on May 1st, the HRIG and first vaccine dose are given then, as Day 0. The second vaccine dose will be on May 4, the third on May 8, the fourth on May 15, and the fifth on May 22. The HRIG may cause some discomfort, but this usually goes away within a day. The vaccine doses are not particularly painful; as with most vaccines, some redness or arm soreness may occur but does not usually cause any real problems. For complete information on the post-exposure treatment, please see “Human Rabies Prevention — United States, 1999: Recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP).”

Mostly in third world countries where medical care is rather spotty. Also, as already mentioned, it’s not a regular vaccine where you get one shot and you’re good for a number of years - if you’re bitten you will require another series of shots as a “booster”. Keep in mind, too, that people who are bitten are not always aware they’ve been bitten (bat bites, for example, often go unnoticed) or have been so often bitten it’s impossible to say when and where and what gave it to them. Nor is it always predators - domestic animals such as cattle can also contract rabies and pass it on to humans.

China Guy, the one shot you had was apparently the pre-exposure immunization. And no, it isn’t particularly painful. It may be a 1cc dose administered subcutaneously, or a 0.1cc dose administered intradermally. Not a big deal at all. Many people who work with wildlife (like my staff) and certain people who travel to areas where exposure rates are high (presumably yourself, 20 years ago) get this. It is indeed a vaccine in that it challenges the immune system and causes the production of antibodies. These antibodies can be measured (“blood titre”) by the same serological tests as discussed earlier for dogs. A positive blood titre is “proof” that the immunization “worked”.

However, in humans this is not considered to be sufficient in case of an actual bite. It is intended to give the body a “jump start” on production of antibodies and possibly confers sufficient immunity for a “casual exposure”. (An unnoticed minor scratch by a rabies carrier, or contact with aerosolized saliva from a rabies carrier [street dog sneezed in your face, or licked you while you slept in a sleeping bag on the ground]). As you were warned, in case of a bite, you would require the post-exposure series. No chances are taken with this 100% (less a smidgen) fatal disease.

You correctly state that this is no longer the old classic stomach series, but an intramuscular series of (primarily) human rabies immune globulin. This series is though often rather painful because of the volumes of HRIG given. The needles are big, the volumes are huge, and the person often feels like a turgid pin cushion. It is especially traumatic for children, who can’t believe that “you’re gonna put all THAT in me?!!?!! Again!?!?!” I guess it can be described as temporary and mild discomfort, but nobody I know who has been through it would happily repeat the experience. It does though beat getting dead.

Dr Deth, my heart is with you, but not my head. **slaphead ** recounts it pretty well. In point of fact, a “generic moggy” is not “considered 100% safe”. But if the generic moggy has been vaccinated with an approved vaccine, and if that moggy is available and can be held for quarantine, then there will be a presumption that it is not a rabies carrier. If it clears quarantine without developing symptoms, then the victim of the bite can consider him/herself safe.

Realize that even approved vaccines have some greater than zero failure rate. And so both a current vaccination AND availability for quarantine are required. Else the victim gets the post-exposure series.

Vaccines, like all drugs in the US, must undergo a rather tedious and expensive testing series to establish both their safety and their effectiveness before they can be marketed. (Most of the western world has similar procedures for new drugs, but the specifics – and the height of the hurdles to be jumped – vary from country to country.) Since there are commonly species-specific differences in the reaction of animals to any drug, every target species must be tested and approved separately. There is no presumption that even closely related species will react identically.

So manufacturers of drugs, including rabies vaccines, analyse their potential market. Lots of possible sales for domestic felines or domestic canines translates into an incentive to spend that huge amount of money and invest those several years of time to get an approval for that specific use. Size of potential market for a vaccine intended for, say, wildebeast or red ruffed lemur is miniscule, so there could not be sufficient sales to recoup the investment in testing. Ergo, no vaccine “labeled” for wildebeast or red ruffed lemur.

“Domestic” breeds, whether they are canine, feline, or other have indeed been derived from wild species. However, they have been selectively bred, in genetic isolation, for some umpteen number of generations. Pug dogs are indeed derived from some original wild wolf-ish stock, as are all domestic dogs. But pugs are an established and genetically isolated breed. A pug crossed with a pug produces pugs, not airedales. Indeed, cross any domestic dog breeds and the one thing you will NOT get as a result is a wolf. Similarly, a black angus heifer, when bred to any other domestic breed of cattle, will produce a domestic calf, not an Asian wild ox.

In the case of Bengal cats, as you state, most of these are primarily domestic (F3 theoretically 1/8 wild ancestry). But Bengals are not (yet) a domestic breed. Specific characteristics of the breed are not established, which is one reason the Cat Fanciers Association does not recognize Bengal. Indeed, your own cite describes the ongoing back-crossing to wild and wild-type.

Given this, it is impossible to reliably determine the exact ancestry of any given individual based upon appearance alone. The animal could be a pure wild Asian Leopard Cat, or it might be a highly dilute, mostly domestic, individual with vivid markings. And we have owners/breeders who deliberately obfuscate. Sometimes for marketing purposes, sometimes as a shield against liability.

Thus the use of rabies vaccine in these animals remains an “off-label usage” the effectiveness of which will not be guaranteed by either the vaccine manufacturer nor the administering veterinarian. Yes, we do all believe that the vaccine is probably effective (dog, cat, Bengal, or wolf-hybrid). But “probably” in this case is not “demonstrably”. Demonstrably requires that species-specific proof which will not be forthcoming because of (1) economic reasons and (2) an inability to define Bengal as a discrete, self-replicating, testable breed.

In this case, public safety requires an abundance of caution.

Broomstick, thanks-- Wisconsin.

:frowning:

Bengal cats are just as much domesticated cats as other moggies are. Either no cats are then domesticated or benagls are too.

Bengals are as much “standard animals” as the Mau, and any other purebred.

Benagls are “existing domestic species”.

Look, either a vaccine works for a species or it doesn’t. If it works for a Pug it will work for a wolf, since they are the same species.

Thanks CannyDan for an update on rabies vaccinations. that was cool

This isn’t GD, so I’m really not trying to be argumentative, but–

Sorry, that just isn’t biologically correct. All of the several biological concepts of “species” (see any of hundreds of references, including a multitude of threads on SDMB) contain sufficient flexibility as to allow for considerable individual variation. Different species may in fact actually overlap in this variable range (for any given characteristic or characteristics). No biological species concept though considers derived domestic varieties to be “the same” (in a strictly biological sense meaning identical in characteristics or in DNA) as the wild species (singular or plural) from which it was derived.

And, from your own cite, the Bengal is not even “derived”. Yet. It is not a reproductively isolated, true-breeding form. It contains, by its own definition, everything from pure wild type through any number of out-crossed filial generations, with virtually any amount of wild versus domestic DNA, subject to ongoing back-crossing at all levels. Some day it may be a stable cultivated variety, but it isn’t now. Again, this is the reason that Cat Fanciers Association doesn’t formally recognize it as a “breed” of cat.

A domestic short haired tabby, on the other hand, is “derived”. It is self perpetuating. Breed one short haired tabby to another and all offspring will be short haired tabbies. None of the offspring will be Asian jungle cats. And (except for hybridizations like its incorporation into the Bengal) it is not subject to out-crossing to wild type. But even then, these out-crosses are not being called short haired tabbies. Therefore, the short haired tabby is a different species from its wild ancestors.

To follow your jump from felines to canines–

If it works for a Pug it will ***probably ** * work for a wolf, since these are closely related though biologically separate species. But with this as the scientific background, and given the potential consequences of assuming a level of efficacy that may be speculated but has by no means been actually demonstrated, no vaccine manufacturer and no regulatory authority is prepared to make the leap of faith that you make.