Pete Rose, Just Go The Fuck Away

The BBQ Pit
61

Cobb committed, a felony, yes. Orlando Cepeda received more than a slap on the wrist for, IIRC, drug trafficking, was it? But he didn’t commit baseball’s cardinal sin (and I don’t know enough to say Cobb did either).

Rose did. Many times over. Many hundred times over, if Dowd is to be believed.

When you’re done forgiving Rose for gambling, do remember that he knew, when he was doing it, that if he was caught he would be banned from baseball for life. He knew it from it being posted in the clubhouses, doubtless knew about others (cf. White Sox) who had been caught and banned for life, and he still did it.

Forgiveness doesn’t mean shit. He still did it. He’s still banned. And if he’s reinstated I’m scared of the precedence that sets. It might as well be professional (non Greco-Roman) wrestling, where the point of the match isn’t (and hasn’t been for a while) who wins. Thanks, but I’ll stick to sports where things aren’t fixed beforehand.

62

As a lifelong Brewer’s fan, I loudly second Fuck Selig!

If I may offer an opinion. What I understood in high school was Rose was banned on condition that he would be considered for reinstatement, should he admit to gambling and come clean. This was were I formed the opinion he should be reinstated, on conditions.

Comparing Rose to “Shoeless” Joe is specious. Jackson was involved in a conspiracy to throw the World Series. hardly comparable to betting on a Dodger/Giants game.

If he is proven to have gambled while on the field, fine. I’ll change my position. Did he gamble as a Manager? Not sure, I wasn’t his bookie. But he isn’t going to get in as a Manager. The HOF argument should be based on something he did that no other player ever has done. And likley never to do again.

I grew up in Milwaukee and idolized Paul Molitor. He went in on first ballot as a Brewer. Anyone want to argue he shouldn’t be there because of his cocaine problem?

63

For anyone in lower Manhattan, he’s doing a book signing today at Borders on Broadway (right near ground zero) from 12-2. I was thinking about going up there and giving him a piece of my mind, but I don’t feel like dealing with all the people. Not worth it to curse at someone for 2.3 seconds before security drags me out.

64

I would like to see Selig paddled about the head and neck with a frozen baguette, but sex is right out.

65

I think we start down a slippery slope when we try to include morality in our HOF determinations. We have Jefferson’s mug engraved at Mt. Rushmore despite the fact that he owned slaves because he was a great patriot. O.J. Simpson was a great running back despite the fact that he later murdered two people.

So I do think Pete should be entered into the HOF based on his accomplishments as a player. However, when he’s inducted I would love for the crowd to turn around instead of applauding. Give him the msg that we acknowledge his accomplishments but we withhold our respect. He lost that when he was caught betting on baseball and he has yet to earn it back by his subsequent boorish and unapologetic behavior.

66

I’m even angrier with Rose now, having read the excerpt in SI, than before. I used to think his problem was the usual addict’s denial, and that he’d eventually have to face what he’d done and why it mattered so much as part of his treatment. Now we know he was consciously lying all those years, never has understood its significance, blames everyone but himself, and wants us to “move on”. He’s simply used everyone who ever thought he was his friend or could help him, most notably Joe Morgan this time. That isn’t a disease he can get sympathy for; he’s just an asshole, and one with no understanding of the basic meaning of sportsmanship (which is why he’ll never belong in the Hall, regardless of his status with the Commissioner’s Office).

From a guy who fell in love with the game from following him and the Big Red Machine, admiring Charlie Hustle as the ultimate role model for an athlete, this is hard but not that hard: Pete, I never want to hear or see your name or face again. There’s nothing you’ll ever do to change that. Go off to some gutter, or back to prison, and quietly die, okay? Do it for all of us.

Bud Selig, if you’re even thinking about reinstating him, you can go to hell and die too. Your job exists because of gambling in baseball. You have no more fundamental responsibility than to keep it out. If you ever get a clue about anything, get a clue about that.

67

Lisa, it isn’t just any kind of personal conduct that we’re discussing here. Yes, the Hall has its share of drunks and bigots and who knows what else. But none of those things has anything to do with the integrity of the game. Rose wants to be honored by the very institution he insulted, and continues to insult, with his actions and words. Why should anyone grant an honor to a man who pisses on them?

68

How many times do we have to go over this?

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MORALITY!

I don’t know how this could be made any clearer. Pete Rose is NOT banned from baseball because gambling is immoral! He is not banned because gambling on baseball is immoral. He is not banned for being an immoral person. He is banned because he can’t be trusted, and he can’t be trusted because he violated a principle of professional ethics (not morals.)

As to the Rose-in-the-Hall thing, there seems to be an unspoken assumption that Rose somehow deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Well, he sure as hell does not. Was he a great player? Absolutely. He had 4,256 hits, in a time when there wasn’t as much hitting as we’re used to now. He had ten 200-hit seasons. He won an MVP Award. He got five hits in a game ten times. He won three batting titles. He won two Gold Gloves. He was a really, really good player from 1965 to 1981, which is longer than a lot of Hall of Fame careers. He won the World Series three times, one of which was with the PHILLIES, for God’s sake. He won a World Series MVP Award with the Reds. He was in a bazillion All-Star Games.

So what? All those things - his records, his World Series wins, all that stuff - is already in the Hall. It’s part of the historical record. It’s not as if Rose is being denied his records or as if his name has been stricken from the books. He’s in all that.

But if he wants a plaque in the big room full of plaques, well, he doesn’t DESERVE that. He doesn’t, and Babe Ruth doesn’t, and Cy Young doesn’t. It’s a privilege, and if he can’t even be trusted to be employed in baseball and lies and lies about gambling and brings shame and ridicule upo himself and the sport, just why would the Hall of Fame was to induct him? What does the Hall of Fame owe Pete Rose? Jack. What gives Pete Rose some God-given right to that honor? Nothing.

The hell with him. I say let him in but only after you let in Ron Santo, a great player who never gambled on baseball. And Ryne Sandberg. And Darrell Evans, and Bert Blyleven, and let me see… Dave Stieb, why not him? Gil Hodges. Minnie Minoso. What about Tony Oliva? He won three batting titles. So did Bill Madlock. Why should those players - and those men were GREAT players - wait on the outside while Gamble Boy gets in after fourteen years of lies and slander? What are you saying to Dale Murphy and Jim Rice? “You may have hit a lot of homers and won MVP Awards and played honestly and never broken The One Rule, but you can’t get in. We’re gonna let in a guy who broke the rule though. Yeah, we’ll change the rules for HIM, but you guys can eat shit.”

And what about Normk Cash? Ted Simmons? Great players. Jim Kaat? Jim Morris? Goose Gossage? And Willie Aikens and Devon White and Buddy Biancalana and Mario Mendoza, and every other baseball player in the history of baseball who didn’t gamble on baseball and didn’t make me want to fucking puke.

69

I think every Rickjay post should be forwarded to Selig.

70

Wow. Just wow.

I really wish the people responding in this thread that “well, gambling isn’t so bad” would actually read your posts, RickJay

71

I wish you’d give Bill James some credit for writing that, though, RickJay. You’re right, and I agree with with every word, but give credit where it’s due.

72

I should add, since James is a well-known Rose apologist, that James’ screed was written on behalf of Joe Jackson, for whom he listed a simlar number of names (some of them the same names as RickJay has listed), reaching a simililar conclusion.

Also I didn’t mean to imply that RickJay had ripped James off, just that maybe he’d read James’ piece a few decades ago and some of his rhetoric had reemerged without conscious intent.

73

Actually, James did write a line similar to that, though I doubt he cited the same players. (But I don’t remember.) You’re absolutely right, I am sure that’s what created that idea. The similarly was unconscious. I apologize if it looked like I was stealing from him.

(For those who are wondering what prr is talking about, he means my last paragraph, the one that mentions Buddy Biancalana. Bill James wrote something similar about Joe Jackson. The rest is certainly not Bill James’s though.)

I tried to find the James quote to see how close I came but I can’t find it anywhere. I believe it was in “The Politics of Glory,” now published as “Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame?” It went something like “I think they should let Joe Jackson into the Hall of Fame just as soon as they let in Charlie Keller, Tommy John, Omar Moreno, and every other player who made baseball the beautiful pastime it is rather than poisoning it with greed and corruption.” Yeah, I see a similarity. However, the “what message are we sending other great players who aren’t in?” concept is most certainly not taken from James, I am sure. If you could quote him I’d appreciate it, though, I should be careful.

I don’t think Bill ever wrote “fucking puke.” :smiley:

74

I should also point out that James is not per se a Rose apologist. James was, originally, a critic of John Dowd and the manner in which baseball handled the investigation.

I love Bill James’s writing, and hes a very smart man. I think “win shares” is the coolest thing ever. But over time, James became more and more irrational in his attacks on the Dowd report, to the point that he’d make factual errors and just refuse to acknowledge he’d made them.

But see, Rose hurt James, too. And Roger Kahn, and everyone else who defended him. He left honorable men out to dry.

75

Wish I could find it. I own everything he’s published, but I have no idea where in the two dozen or so books by James, I should look for his eloquent rant eloquent abouy Joe Jackson. I remember it ended “and then I would hold my nose and vote for him.”

I felt his spirited, petty (and frequently sloppy) critique of John Down’s report went way over the line of objectivity.

76

I was absolutely positive that it was in “The Politics of Glory.” But now I think maybe I was wrong… wasn’t it in that book that his comment about Jackson was

“My opinion of the people who want to reinstate Joe Jackson is that they’re baseball’s answer to women who show up at murder trials wanting to marry the cute murderer”?

But you might want to check there first. I lost my copy.

77

Yup. At the end of chapter 27, “Charlie Hustle and Shoeless Joe,” 99% of which devoted to Rose, here’s James 1% about Shoeless Joe: “My own opinion is that the people who want to put Joe Jackson in the Hall of Fame are baseball’s answer to those women who show up at murder trials wanting to marry the cute murderer.”

78

Babe Ruth isn’t in the Hall? Why not?

79

No, I’m sorry… I meant Babe Ruth doesn’t DESERVE it. No player deserves it, it’s a privilege, not a right.

Ruth is in, as is Cy Young.

80

He was banned for this. He continues to stay banned because he has never understood that he’s the bad guy in this grimy little morality play. Read the excerpts from his books, and read his interviews, and it’s clear that he still considers himself the victim, and his persecutors the villains.

He’s wearing the black hat here. The various commissioners, investigators, and so on throughout the years have handled the situation in the only way that is correct and lawful. They’re the good guys.

As far as I’m concerned, Rose can rot in his own stupidity until baseball is no longer remembered in this universe. With luck, that will never happen, and Rose will be forever excluded.

I’m flabbergasted that anyone can defend the man.