No, I think lots of guys find it disgusting regardless of how they were raised. I’m not saying we’re born with a natural disgust towards homosexuality. I’m just saying that when it comes to certain types of sexual acts/behavior some people are going to like seeing some things, some people aren’t going to like seeing others.
I’ve never really like porn or watched porn movies. I mostly only know about facials because of the internet and random chatter I’ve heard in my life. Again I was just using it as an example and I picked it because a lot of the other “non-mainstream” sex acts out there were, IMO a bit too extreme to use as an example.
That’s the only point I was making. That that separator seat doesn’t = a rift created by the evil forces of homophobia, I’ll admit that can certainly be one of the reasons. But just think it’s incorrect to just assume that.
You think then that it’s only ‘natural’ (your word) and understandable that some people find two men consentually (and romantically) kissing (no tongue) more worthy of audible disgust than to see a woman sticking a needle filled with heroin into her thigh, or a man being kicked and beaten by three muggers, or police forcing a filthy homeless woman out of her cardboard box, etc.? If so, then I must look with bemused and visibly disgusted eyes at your values.
Of course it’s at such times that I think of Henry Adams’s studies (the U of GA professor, not the John Adams descendant/author) on homophobia and the findings therein (that the most vocally homophobic of the study participants were more aroused by gay porn and the less aroused by straight porn than the participants who identified as tolerant) and take some tiny measure of satisfaction. But what really sickens me is that I’m 39, I’m intelligent, I’m capable of reasonable physical self defense and more than reasonable rhetorical self defense with these people, but seeing the poor closeted or non-closeted teenagers and 20 somethings and knowing what it does to them and their self esteem to be told by visceral reaction that their love is more disgusting than violence, drug abuse, etc.- I become less than forgiving of the “natural” disgust.
I’ve noticed what Capybara mentioned also about the way male on male rape is seen as just intrinsically more brutal and disgusting a violation than male-female rape, when both involve the sexual penetration of another person by force and against their will. Disgusting how Marsellus, an extremely unlikable and unsympathetic character, being anally raped caused more visceral reaction among the men in the theater when I watched Pulp Fiction than the little girl being raped caused when I watched Time to Kill. People are so… fucking stupid and uneven.
PS- Because of the higher than usual number of black audience members and middle aged couples, I’m guessing that the fact the movie had a multiracial cast, a “rock opera” reputation, urban setting, etc., was the draw to people who didn’t know the storyline involved gays and transgendered folk. Plus there’s Rosario Dawson and lesbians for those who have no interest in muticultural rock opera. (I find Rosario Dawson insanely hot, incidentally, as well as the actress who plays Joanne- very odd considering my default predilections.)
I’ll say using the term natural probably wasn’t appropriate per se and tried to clear up what I meant in a later post.
I think two things meaningfully influence our “ick” factor over any given thing. Socialization is the first thing. The culture you’ve been raised in will tend to imprint upon you from day one what is something that shouldn’t bother you and what is something that should bother you. For example the traditional Italian “machismo” would cause most Italians who grew up in such an environment to be somewhat uncomfortable with seeing man-man sexual acts or even less-sexual romantic acts in a light of disgust.
The second thing, I think is more psychological in nature and comes from a variety of different places (somewhere in there you just have to throw in the vacuous “personal instincts” aspect.)
But either way I’ll maintain that people don’t make a conscious choice to be disgusted by things, it’s just the way they feel. And I don’t think it makes them fundamentalists or anti-gay.
And your further points about heroin use or beatings, well some people really can’t stand to see violence, some people it doesn’t bother. It’s just a highly personal thing in my opinion. Some people don’t like to see two men kissing.
Alright.
Not denying that some outspoken homophobes are reacting to a certain degree of attraction they might have towards other men. But I think there’s also people that say they don’t like seeing two men make out because that’s just not what they want to see.
Odd-side note but I personally am not a very emotive person and seeing any overblown expressions of love (ie passionate kissing/making out) in public sort makes me uncomfortable, feel out of place, feel a bit disgusted etc, whether it be male-male or male-female or female-female.
And like I said, I think people should keep their personal reactions in check in a movie theater. But I also don’t think badly of people who are disgusted by homosexual acts.
People don’t have to respond to every situation equally to be “good” or “intelligent” or even “normal.”
You know part of the reason male-on-male rape as seen as more brutal by males may have to do with the fact that a man can more “be in the victims shoes” when it’s one man being overpowered and raped by another man. While it’s pretty hard to put yourself in a woman’s shoes, when you aren’t a woman. Most men don’t worry about rape because they view rape as a woman’s problem because women are typically smaller and less physically powerful than men, and the fact that there aren’t many men out there who sexually prey on other men the same way some rapists prety after women. Seeing male-male rape sort of makes them think about things and imagine things about themselves that they’d rather not.
Feeling a gut-level disgust at seeing something that’s unappealing to you isn’t “prejudice” in my opinion. Mainly because you aren’t necessarily making any sort of judgment about something you’re disgusted with, other than you don’t personally find it appealing.
So if I felt a gut level disgust at the sight of black people eating in the same restaurant as me and I expressed it (audibly but non abusively), it doesn’t make me prejudiced or bigoted.
Good to know, in case I ever decide to be a racist asshole but don’t want to call myself a racist asshole.
I think that it’s different in a very subtle way. I think being disgusted simply at the sight of a homosexual is most definitely the result of prejudice. But being disgusted by a specific act (kissing, sodomy, et al.) can just be a matter of personal preference for example some guys like having anal sex with women, some guys find the concept physically disgusting and don’t want to see or hear about it.
With your example you’re more talking about someone just plain disliking a human being for being in the same area as them and simply because of the color of their skin. In the example of being disgusted by a specific type of sexual act, we’re just talking about someone not enjoying the viewing of a specific sexual act. There’s no evidence that said person necessarily has a problem with the people committing the act.
Your argument basically seems to be [Being disgusted by a sex act]=[Actively disliking the people engaged in the act]=[Being prejudiced]
My argument is you can’t make the blanket statement that those things equate that way. I believe you can be disgusted by seeing two people engaged in a sex act without disliking the people for their sexual preference.
Martin Hyde, there’s one bit of hypocrisy Sampiro pointed out that you seem to be overlooking.
I’m not gay. I’m about as straight as they come, so to speak. I’m also not entirely comfortable with public displays of affection myself, although I’ve felt the temptation to indulge in them recently. What annoys me is that somehow male homosexuality is often seen as disgusting while female homosexuality is seen as less so and in some cases can even be seen as erotic.
I’m a woman. I hate rape scenes and brutality, which is one reason I avoid movies like Pulp Fiction and one of many reasons Troy stank. Nevertheless, they’re not all that uncommon in movies and, in the case of Troy, I didn’t read any objections to a woman’s falling madly in love with the man who she was convinced was going to rape her moments earlier.
Yes, I know. Men and women are different and respond to things differently. That happens to be one of the things I like about being straight. The double standard shown by the people Sampiro talked about is still one thing I don’t care for.
And I would agree with that; but the part that you’re leaving out is the fact that they were not merely quietly disturbed, but felt the need to make a show of their disgust. That’s the source of the problem IMO. All sorts of people are repulsed by all sorts of things, but part of basic maturity is recognizing that that goes both ways and you should do as you would be done by.
Yeah, I get an “ick” seeing men kiss; I suspect it’s biologically hardwired, but who the hell knows? But since I am a civilized human, I am able to rise above my biology and recognize that I have all sorts of instinctive reactions that are inappropriate or morally wrong. I have no more right to express my “ick” in public than I do to express my sexual attraction for my neighbor’s 15 year old daughter or to take a leak on the bus.
If Sampiro was objecting to what people felt, I’d think he was unrealistic and hypersensitive. But he was objecting to what they said and did, which is another thing entirely.
I can understand a straight person’s “I’ll never get how people of the same sex can be attracted to each other”, but you’ve stated the problem accurately in my opinion…you don’t go getting audibly “icked out” about it. Obviously straight people don’t get it. That’s a given. But you don’t sit there carrying on about it, any more than you would sit in a restaurant going, “I can’t STAND chicken! I don’t know how the fuck you can EAT that crap!” The Icked Out Comments ™ are a blatant statement of disapproval…not one of a person’s inability to relate.
And to comment on an earlier post about how people might not have known that “Rent” has a gay theme…Christ…buy a fuckin’ newspaper or something. How could you NOT know?
Sampiro, while I share your impatience with people who are openly homophobic, I think you’re overreacting a little bit.
While the household I grew up in was nominally religious, we were about as far from fundie as one could possibly get. By the time I was around 11, we’d stopped going to church altogether. By the time I was 14, I’d decided that while gaydom was not for me, it was no horrible crime. If people wanted to do that sort of thing, it was no skin off my back. And today, I’d be right there with you in a gay rights parade or in a letter writing campaign. I think it would be fair to say that I’m on the enlightened side of the fence.
And yet, when I see homoeroticism in the cinema, I get a little weirded out. My natural tendancy is to look away. I may even give an involuntary audiable “ugh.” Or would have, in the past. Over the years I have trained myself to just sit and watch and accept it, but it took some effort. Of course, this is a far sight from loudly announcing “Eww, that’s disgusting and wrong, and God will smite them, and I’m a he-man who will glady rape any female in this theatre.” But from your reaction in this thread, I am still a fundie homophobe who is as morally reprehensible as someone who would gladly lynch peoples of color.
As others have said, apparently there’s worse stuff in there then 2 guys kissing each other. It’s akin to criticizing Grand Theft Auto because of a sex scene despite much more disturbing things.
Or people who whine about swearing in Saving Private Ryan, convienently missing the part where people were using their hands to keep their guts from spilling out.
Huh. I wonder what their reaction was to The Crying Game (self-hijack: Also huh: I didn’t recognize Miranda Richardson on the new Harry Potter flick).
A couple anecdotal experiences tangentially associated with the OP:
I saw Blade Runner in a theater in Berkeley a while back. In the scene where Deckard prevents Rachel from leaving his apartment and then orders him to kiss her, there were some boos and a certain amount of hissing from the audience.
I took my kids to see Elizabeth when it came out. The sex scenes were all hidden behind scrims and backdrops, but the scenes of people being murdered or burned at the stake were right there on screen, fifty feet tall and twice that wide. Yay, cinema.