Pharmacists and refusals

Fair enough.

Except that this law only affects women.

In theory it can affect anyone. In reality it only affects women.

If you can meet the challenge to show how men are affected (in reality and not in theory) then go for it.

If a law ONLY affects one group how can you deny discrimination? At that point you have to admit the discrimination exists and then try to argue that the discrimination is reasonable (which is absolutely possible…some discrimination makes sense but you have to make that case for this issue).

When it comes to Crack white/black/hispanic/asian/whatever are all sent to jail the same for using it (well…it is another thread to talk about the fairness of the justice system but not relevant here).

In theory a pharmacist might deny a male. Except that never happens.

As for “intent” did they need to prove intent to deem poll taxes as discriminatory? I have not seen “intent” cited. I saw the court deem the effect discriminatory. We can guess the intent but it was never proven or even an issue in the court cases that I am aware of.

Priests not marrying gay men has what relevance here? It is not remotely equivalent. To be equivalent you would HAVE to see a priest to get married like you HAVE to see a pharmacist to get a prescription filled.

So the answer here is “Yes”.

Obviously if we make a law that says you cannot murder someone there is no “group” being targeted.

Not answering the question. The question did not ask about employment at all.

The answer is undeniably “true”.

Why is that a false analogy?

It is a straightforward question.

Are men affected by the law? Yes or no?

Not in theory (which would be “yes”) but in reality (which would be no).

If you can prove that wrong be my guest.

People choose to be Catholic. <– Choice

You are forced to go to a pharmacist to get a prescription filled. <– No choice

Will do.

Actually no, you do not do that. You posted those to two people, neither of which was me.

Let’s see how you acknowledged that my view is not unreasonable:

And those are just to me. I did not cite snark directed at others.

Given the above understand I am a underwhelmed that you piously proclaim the other side has legitimately held beliefs. Even if everything above is 100% spot on and deserved you most certainly have not “consistently acknowledged that [my] view is not unreasonable.”

Of the two of us you have been the one consistently mocking me. Given that I think it is I who have acknowledged you have reasonable arguments. Not because I went out of my way to say so but because I have debated with you in good faith rather than mock* your position.

Actions speak louder than words (even here where it is all words).

[sub]* Pretty sure I have tossed some snark back at you but the balance is decidedly lopsided in your favor on that count.[/sub]

Since quotes seem to be a recurring issue, I will further note that while ending a quote in mid sentence, with no artificially inserted period, probably meets a technical standard of an “accuarate” quote, posters would do well to include an ellipsis when text has specifically been omitted.

(I am aware that that entire argument hinges on one’s interpretation of whether “denial” has occurred when a subsequent remedy is available, but we can at least avoid some of the rancor attending the argument if we avoid taking stylistic shortcuts that can be misconstrued as “changing” a quote.)

[ /Modding ]

Eh… can do but it’s a silly necessity.
Morgenstern is obviously complaining because he isn’t afforded an idiosyncratic definition of “deny” that’s unique in the English language and which means that you not only have to be refused once, twice, or 1,000 times, but universally and for the rest of time. His complaint was because he admitted that the pharmacist did in fact deny the request for the prescription, when he said in his own words that the pharmacist refused to fill it. There’s no real confusion over whether “refuse someone’s request” does or doesn’t mean “deny their request”. It’s just difficult for Morgen’s argument to deal with, so he has to claim it’s some sort of dishonesty or “fear” or “absurdity”, or what have you. * Morgen hasn’t even tried to explain how denying someone’s request to fill a prescription really doesn’t count if someone else then accepts it, he’s just maintained that a denial is somehow erased by the alchemy of a future acceptance. * And he hasn’t because he simply can’t. There is no interpretation of the word “deny” in the English language that even beings to approach his gloss. The “rancor” will still be there because Morgen is arguing in the teeth of the facts. From what the law in question actually says to the truly laughable dodge that refusing to fill a prescription isn’t denying it. Morgen’s argument can’t stand on the facts, so he needs to allege “absurd hypotheticals”, “wild claims”, “fear” and now that the definition of “deny” only applies if someone’s request is refused universally and in perpetuity.

And as being hoisted by one’s own petard seems to be an occupational hazard for those who are arguing that this bit of discrimination is acceptable but others are not, Morgen’s same rationalizations would have fit in very well with the Jim Crow south.

Or as Evil-Morgen, the hypothetical evil-twin who’s time traveled back to the bad ol’ days probably would have said:
"Why, you’re just using absurd hypotheticals and fear! Of course blacks can be refused service under the law, but that proves nothing, you fear-crazed hippie. And besides, we clearly saw that the black man in your example went to a lunch counter and requested food, but you lie when you claim he was denied. Obviously, he was not. What actually happened was that the lunch counter attended refused to serve him under any circumstances and told him to get the fuck out before she called the cops, and then the black man walked across town and found a segregated establishment that agreed to serve him. And, at that segregated restaurant, he finally got served. Which proves that of course he wasn’t denied service and only a fearful lying hippie, like you, would dare impugn our noble system of laws by alleging that anybody was actually denied service. "

Evil-Bricker, Morgen’s partner in crime and Bricker’s evil-twin who’s also time-traveling back to the bad ol’ days would probably add:
“And, besides, there was another place he could get lunch that was less than 60 miles away. And who are we to force people to do work that they find abhorrent, like serving black people? Now, true, we might be engaging in discrimination that’s a little bit too broad, I’m as progressive as the next fellow. So, instead, we won’t allow lunch counter discrimination anymore and instead, only pharmacists can choose not to serve black people. And then, only if their personal morals are threatened and they feel that the blacks are overly uppity. That’ll be left up to individual pharmacists and their employers, but it’s vital that we not constrain pharmacists abilities to refuse service to uppity blacks. And besides, your reasoned arguments as to why this is wrong don’t matter, as it’s the law and you can put that in your pipe and smoke it, hippie.”

Did you miss this post, Bricker?

I answered your post. Now it’s your turn since you seem to have missed it twice already:

And…

Do you support that Bill?

I await your response.

Yes, I have directed lots of snark at you.

At the same time, I have explicitly acknowledged your view is not unreasonable.

You, in turn, have been somewhat more reserved in your comments directed at me personally, but completely dismissive of the view I am arguing.

Since this is supposed to be about the ideas, and not the people, I’m of the opinion that acknowledging the opposing view has validity is of more import than dismissive comments aimed at the person, especially since the person’s unwilligness to acknowledge an opposing reasonable idea is the impetus for the snark.

I don’t know enough about it to offer an opinion. My initial reaction is that a hospital routinely deals with emergency cases, unlike the pharmacy model, and so the idea that the pharmacy model should apply to a hospital is flawed. So my initial, unstudied reaction is that I don’t approve of this measure… which is, I might add, not a law but merely a bill.

By dismissive do you mean my responding to your arguments in a forthright manner and not dismissing them with snarky answers?

That kind of dismissive?

I agree this practice only affects women and this law explicitly permits this practice.

I think it depends on what you are focused on. Are you talking about whether this is discrimination in a legal sense or if it is discrimination in the colloquial sense.

Certainly we cannot say that any private action that discriminates between men and women amounts to discrimination. The fact that a lesbian will only have sex with other women does not discriminate against men no matter how much men want to have sex with her.

I don’t think anyone has been able to establish discriminatory intent on the part of the pharmacist.

So unless we can use one of the legally constructed definitions of discrimination that impute discrimination where we cannot find discriminatory intent but only discriminatory impact then I don’t see how this is discrimination anywhere other than in the minds of people who would see discrimination in any situation where a woman’s choices are not facilitated.

I am saying that the commonly accepted definitions of discrimination do not apply in this case because there is a lack of intent and I am saying that the legally constructed definitions of discrimination do not apply in this case (you keep bringing up cases where they do apply and saying because they apply in the case X, they also apply here without acknowledging how different the cases are).

As has been pointed out SEVERAL times, voting is a SPECIAL CASE.

Don’t think of them as priests, think of them as officiators, that is the capacity in which they are performing legal weddings. You HAVE to see an officiator, this one just happens to have beliefs that do not permit him to perform a gay marriage and we are OK with that. There are plenty of officiators that will perform marriage ceremonies but THIS one won’t perform marriage ceremonies for gay couples.

How about the doctor that doesn’t want to perform abortions based on religious beliefs? How do you distinguish that practice from this one?

Yes, in SOME cases (that do not resemble this case), a law that doesn’t specifically target a group can be deemed discriminatory nonetheless. See Voting Rights Act.

I didn’t mean voting is different from employment. I meant that voting and employment are different from other things. I agree that you can reach discrimination in the case of voting without intent. I am also saying that this is harder to do outside of things like voting.

I do feel that there is a difference between a healthcare professional needing to know information to provide quality care, but it shouldn’t give the professional carte blanche to make any and all inquiries to satisfy their own personal interests. For example, if I see a doctor for a condition, it may be relevant for the doctor to ask about sexual practices in order to evaluate the possibility of an STD. However, inquiring into how often I look at porn or what types I prefer is totally irrelevant in that case (though might be relevant if I’m seeking mental heath care).

If you had to choose between saving the life of a 6 year old girl or a 70 year old man, who would you choose? If you choose to save the girl, are you saying the life of the man is worthless? I don;t think so.

Or the same thing between a family member and a man who lives in Russia who you ever met?

There are levels of priority. If you can only save one, you need to make a choice. Choosing one is not saying the other dosn;t matter.