Physicists - so, how is the Higgs Field NOT ether?!

http://www.onbeing.org/program/brian-greene-reimagining-the-cosmos/6118

Listened to the above NPR show, where Krista Tippett interviewed physicist Brian Greene on her show about spirituality, philosophy, etc. called On Being.

In that interview, Greene basically characterized the Higgs Field as something that pervades our reality, and accounts for much of the mass that we see the effects of but can’t see - so Dark Matter, I guess. Known/normally-detectable particles gain their mass as a byproduct of having to move through the Higgs Field.

I don’t believe I am mis-stating or misquoting him.

So - how is that NOT ether/Aether - the hypothesized substance that enabled light to propagate pre-Relativity? I’m confuzzled.

I’m confused why your confused. The Higgs field doesn’t mediate the electro-magnetic force, which as you say, was the entire point of ether.

Stepping back, I am not referring specifically to EM, I am referring to the existence of “stuff” through which elementary particles “propagate”…

Yes, but the aether was proposed or hypothesized because they couldn’t understand how light (EM radiation) could possibly “wave” in a vacuum (as conventional waves always needed a medium to oscillate within).

The Higgs field is proposed as something that gives particles their masses, and with that comes some new particles, etc.

The only thing the two have in common is that they’re both “invisible” and pervasive throughout the cosmos. In almost every other way, they’re not alike at all (and the aether has been experimentally shown not to exist whatsoever).

A quick Google on “How is the Higgs Field NOT ether?” show that this is not a topic I pulled out of…the ether?? :wink:

http://changingpower.net/seifer-to-time-magazine-higgs-field-is-ether/

The Higgs Boson vs the Spacetime Metric (“a newer (additional? alternative?) interpretation consisting of a “Higgs ether” which acts as the source of particle mass in the sense of inertial resistance to acceleration”)
What is the Higgs boson? Johns Hopkins physicist discusses Nobel-winning find | Hub (“In some ways the Higgs field is like the idea of ether, a medium in which waves travel.”)

I’m with ya. But it sort of begins and ends on that superficial notion of a pervasive medium that fills all of space.

Beyond that, it largely diverges into particle physics and quantum mechanics, which the former was barely being sketched in at the end of the 19th century, and the latter wouldn’t be born for decades, after relativity (which explained away the aether) was laid out.

Yeah, I get that one key difference is the relativistic nature of the Higgs Field vs. the absoluteness I believe attributed to ether. It is really is just the coming back to the “pervasive stuff” concept that I am noodling through. Fascinating that an updated version is back up for theoretical consideration.

Whoa, science guy, let’s not get all technical here!

In the spirit of your question, I’d like to know how molten iron is NOT mercury.

They’re both liquid metal that will kill you if you try to swim in them. Amirite?

One of the purposes of science is precisely to tease out the important differences that might, to the unscientific mind, make certain aspects of nature appear superficially similar. If you do nothing but stick to the superficial, without actually explaining the fundamental differences, the whole process becomes pointless.

Couldn’t disagree more, but, to be clear, I am a science dilettante. Mental models matter - ask Einstein about his gedanken experiments. As an ignorant laymen, going from “there is stuff through which particles propagate” to “everything exists relative to everything else - there is no stuff” to “okay, maybe there’s stuff, but it’s a very updated definition and kinda relativistic - but, yeah, still stuff” is pretty freakin’ interesting.

Work with me here.

He(?) is working with you.

Sure: If you redefine “ether” in the way you want (something that allows a physical property to change as it propagates through it), and redefine the Higgs field in the same way, then yes, they’re the same. But then, so are water, air, maple syrup, and a movie’s plot line.

What people are pointing out to you is that that those definition are incomplete and not useful scientifically for answering most questions, and the mercury/molten iron example is pretty much dead on. In order to make the equivalency, you have to abstract the concepts so far that they’ve lost what makes them useful.

I don’t think swimming (well, laying on top, really) in liquid mercury will kill you. Liquid mercury is inert, and will not poison you. You can even swallow it and it will probably just go right through you. It is mercury vapor that is poisonous.

Sorry for the hijack. Back to Higgs ether.

As a member in good standing of The College Of Etheric Sciences, I agree with the OP completely. The Greyfaces voted the Ether out of existence! Well, we brought it back in a way they can’t get rid of! I haven’t been this happy since my first discoveries in the field of ServoSymbols/ Jungian Subliminal Messages!
We let the Technocrats think they had won the day. They shall find we have gained eternity.

Dude, don’t get me started about phlogiston. :wink:

As for the rest of you, I’m still noodling.

This can’t possibly be right, unless the FDA and everything I’ve ever learned about Mercury is wrong. Why would there be an upper limit to how much Tuna a person should consume due to possible mercury poisoning if only the vapor is bad?

From wikipedia:

Quicksilver (liquid metallic mercury) is poorly absorbed by ingestion and skin contact. It is hazardous due to its potential to release mercury vapor.

All that stuff you see from FDA is about mercury vapor and mercury in other forms such as mercury chloride or various mercury organic compounds. As I said, liquid mercury metal is basically inert and won’t kill you or poison you.

Moved MPSIMS --> GQ.

So they didn’t understand the true nature of ether when hypothesizing it 150 years ago. They didn’t understand how the Sun worked, either. I’ve been saying it all along: Dark matter is just luminiferous æther with a less-cool name.

OT — But when I was growing up, my next door neighbor’s dad was a HS science teacher, and had an entire lab/work area in his basement, stocked with all sorts of chemicals (amidst a huge electric train set). It was nerd heaven. Of course, our favorite thing to play with was a huge plastic squirt bottle filled with mercury. We’d play with it for hours, watching it bead and re-coalesce in our hands, on the cement floor, etc.

I had no idea at the time (mid 80s, ~12 y.o.) how “scary” toxic it was, but here I am about 30 yrs later with no ill effects and fond memories of that basement. I’ll bet there’s still tiny beads of mercury lurking in the corners and under old fixtures at that house today.

This is nowhere even close to being true. The aether is a notion that has been around in science at least since classical times (when it was not seen as a medium for light to travel through, largely because, back then, light was not generally understood to travel at all), and at various points in its long and complex history was roped in to play a role in the explanation of all sorts of things, very much including gravity. Isaac Newton himself speculated about how short-range repulsive forces between aether particles might be the cause of gravity (in the Queries section of his Optiks, which is about a lot of things besides optics), and before him Descartes and his many scientific followers attempted to explain both the nature of light and gravitational effects in terms of a space-pervading aether. (One should avoid saying that Descartes attempted to explain gravity in this way, since the concept of gravity, as a force of attraction, did not really exist before Newton. However, Descartes did attempt to explain not only why things fall down, but also why the planets move in closed orbits, in terms of the properties of the aether.

Newton himself regarded light as (simplifying quite a lot) a stream of particles, so the aether played no important role in his explanation of it. He thought the aether was real, nonetheless. The aether only became important for explaining light (and, subsequently, other forms of electromagnetic radiation, when they were discovered, and recognized as being akin to light) when wave theory displaced particle theory as the dominant scientific theory of light, I guess the landmark work in this regard being that of Fresnel in the early 19th century.

So yes, I think the OP is right. In broad brush terms, the Higgs field can be said to do some of the same work for modern physicists that the aether did for certain physicists, such as Newton and Descartes (and many other lesser figures), in the past. Actually, the notion of space pervading fields in general (including electromagnetic and gravitational ones) can be said to do much of the same explanatory work in modern science that the notion of a space-pervading aether did for scientists of the past. The main difference is that the aether was usually conceived of as material, and often even particulate, whereas fields are conceived of as being more …er … aetherial.:stuck_out_tongue:

In fact, it is very frequently the case that obsolete scientific concepts can plausibly be presented in either of two ways, depending on the polemical purposes of the presenter: either as an absurd speculative fantasy that shows how ignorant, uncritical and superstitious our forefathers were, or as an anticipation (by our brilliant ancestors, who were seemingly able, sometimes, to divine the truth without access to most of the relevant evidence) of the true facts that are grasped in a more accurate and nuanced, but not fundamentally different, way by modern science (and sometimes, but not always, under a different terminology). Both of these ways of presenting the matter, however, tend to involve serious distortions of the historical realities (although the first generally more so, in my opinion).

If this is what you mean by an ether, then no, the Higgs field is nothing of that sort. First of all, it’s not ‘stuff’ in any stuffy sense; the ontology of quantum fields is somewhat complicated, but in general, if a field is a quantity defined at all points of spacetime (e.g. electromagnetic field strength), then a quantum field is ‘made of’ operators, i.e. mathematical quantities that take as input a wave function and return another wave function as output. These don’t really sustain an interpretation in terms of ‘stuff’, rather, they do stuff with stuff, perhaps.

What makes the Higgs field special is that even in its ground state (the vacuum state), it has a non-zero average energy (expectation value). This is what particles moving through spacetime interact with, thus gaining mass. Otherwise, the Higgs field is not different from any of the other fields of the Standard Model, which give rise to the electromagnetic, weak, and strong interactions; those likewise pervade all of space, and have as much claim to being ethereal as the Higgs field does.

The crucial point is that no background structure is introduced by any of these fields; rather, if there were a background structure, it would be what those fields are defined on. But the lessons of Special and General Relativity, that there is no such fixed background, aren’t obviated by them in any way (though we don’t currently understand precisely how to unify the ‘quantum fields on spacetime’-point of view with the ‘everything is invariant under different choices of coordinates’-point of view of GR).

That’s not to say that there aren’t any modern ether theories around. A strategy which was popular the last couple of years (but which seems to be in decline right now) is that of modelling our universe as a sort of condensate, which give rise to an effective spacetime metric and excitations propagating within it. You can think of this a bit like how soundwaves propagate in matter: to the soundwave, the matter will effectively look like vacuum, and it will behave like an elementary particle within that vacuum. The proposal is then something like all ordinary matter being made of such emergent excitations, and thus blind to the true, underlying degrees of freedom (the atoms of the material in which the sound wave propagates, e.g.). This is what I would consider a ‘true’ ether theory. The Higgs mechanism can indeed be interpreted in terms of such a model (and indeed, a precursor to it was proposed by Anderson in the setting of superconductivity), but to my knowledge, it by no means necessitates this interpretation.

So I would say that the Higgs field is not an ether in the sense that it doesn’t introduce any fixed background structure such as e.g. the underlying lattice of atoms in a condensed matter system (not anymore than any of the other quantum field do, at any rate).