We started building an aluminum ball out of ding dong wrappers, etc, here in our office to try to break the world’s record aluminum ball size.
First, do you know what the current record is?
Also, it came up that there may be a theoretical limit on the upper size of such an aluminum ball. The gravity would either cause a black hole, or start a thermonuclear reaction and change it into a different element. For hydrogen, iron, etc, we know that’s what happens, but what of aluminum?
Or, there may not be an upper limit and the ball would just get bigger and bigger, and gravity would not be sufficient to cause either of these two scenarios.
What would the eventual fate of such a ball be ?
As this bet has now put an entire box of Ding Dongs at stake, we are hoping you can answer this question.
Aluminum has mass, just like iron, hydrogen and every other element. If you have a ball of aluminum with sufficient mass to produce a gravitaional field stronger than the nuclear strong force, you’ve got a black hole. IIRC, about 3 solar masses is the crititcal mass for black hole formation.
Aluminum has a smaller atomic number than iron, so a large enough ball of it (> 1 stellar mass) would have nuclear reactions at its core, fusing aluminum into iron. It would look like a very atypical white dwarf star.
Actually you need around 5-6 solar masses to form a black hole.
You need to get a fair deal bigger than our sun to fuse up to iron. IIRC the Bad Astronomer set me straight on this awhile back but I have a vague recollection that our sun would only get up to about silicon (just past half way to iron). Of course silicon is just the next step up from aluminum so our hypothetical aluminum ball might fuse.
However, considering that for now we only have the mass of the earth to obtain material from and the earth. Even if it were 100% aluminum you’d still need something like 200,000+ more aluminum sized earths before you’d get fusion.
NOTE: That is a guess based only upon the fact that the sun is around 333,000x the mass of the earth. Assuming stars can be smaller than our sun and that an all aluminum mass the size of the earth would weigh more than the earth I ball-parked my guess at 200,000. Whatever the real number though I think it is clear you’d need a LOT more Ding-Dong wrappers than you’ll ever be able to make here on earth or probably even with all the available aluminum in our solar system.
Yeah but with 10e22(+/- the odd sig. fig.) solar masses of aluminum out there in observable universe, ( based on rel. abundance of AL of 10e-5 and no. of atoms in obs. universe of 10e80) Though it shouldn’t be too hard to scrap together one or two S.M.'s worth for our record attempt, notwithstanding the absence of reliable relative abundance figures for no. of Ding-Dongs. Kit-Kats, Twinkies, etc. in the observable universe.
More important as far the feasibilty of our record attempt (and the bet) are concerned is whether our ball will defintely start its fusion reaction, before turning into a black hole. If so (as these posters seem to suggest) will the guiness book of records still accept it as a aluminum foil ball if its core has started transforming into other elements…
I don’t know if there is presently a record for “World’s Biggest Ding Dong Ball,” and if there is, I’d rename it. But here’s the link to the Guinness Book of World Records FAQ on setting new records. Evidently you can’t just do something exotic and expect to get listed:
It’s a Flash-ready frames-on kind of website, so this direct link doesn’t get you into the rest of the site, so here is the answer, in part:
If I were you, I’d lay off the Hostess snack-ball and become the first person to carve a replica of Connie Chung out of teakwood. Sure, it’ll take a little bit more effort, but I expect this whole thread is mostly chung-in-teak anyway.
I’m not sure exactly how people are getting the figures of 3 or 5-6 solar masses for black hole formation. It’s not true that any old gravitationally-bound object with that mass will collapse to a black hole. Are you saying that at the density of aluminum, the pressure at the core would be great enough to fuse aluminum? And that the core would fuse up to iron and then undergo supernova collapse to a black hole? Correct me if I’m wrong, but in stellar evolution, elements heavier than oxygen are formed by alpha-capture. So with no helium, how does aluminum fuse?
On the other hand, a ball of aluminum at normal density (2700 kg/m[sup]3[/sup]) with a mass of 82.6 Million M[sub]SUN[/sub] would be a black hole already.
And before some wiseguy pops in saying there are many stars with masses far larger than 3.20 M[sub]solar[/sub], I am aware of this. The reason such stars don’t collapse into black holes is because the pressure of fusion heat acts to partially counteract gravity.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Q.E.D. *
**No. From this page. and
[quote]
These compact objects are widely believed to be black holes, since the maximum mass of a neutron star allowed by general relativity is only about 3 solar masses.From here.and finally
I don’t see how your links suggest a 3 solar mass black hole is possible. It just suggests that a neutron star is limited to about 3 solar masses.
I assume it is from that last bit that you get your lower limit of 3 solar masses from but there seems to be a gray area here.
I think we are forgetting something though. The final mass of the black hole at a minimum needs to be 3+ solar masses but it likely has to be formed from a MUCH larger star. In the star’s death throes it will eject a great deal of its mass in a supernova explosion. If it is large enough what remains may form a black hole.
True but I’d wager if you made a Ding-Dong Ball big enough to start its own fusion reaction then the Guiness Book of World Records would probably manage to fit you in somewhere for something.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Whack-a-Mole * I don’t see how your links suggest a 3 solar mass black hole is possible. It just suggests that a neutron star is limited to about 3 solar masses.
[/quote ]
Well, duh. Because the next stage after a neutron star is further gravitational collapse into a black hole. At the neutron star stage, the only thing keeping the object from collapsing is the nuclear strong force. Once that has been overwhelmed, there is noting to prevent further collapse into a black hole.
Yes, and the reason for this is that large, dying stars go supernova before their nuclear furnace is extinguished, and in doing so expell a huge percentage of their mass. The infusible remains must be greater than 3.2 solar masses in order for a black hole to be formed.
Since the wrapper of the Ding-Dongs has far less mass than the product itself, I suspect that the people eating them would reach black hole status first. Given how many would have to be consumed in a person’s lifetime, weight loss techniques would be futile. Early Out’s concern about “morbidly obese” is understated.
If the product was left uneaten and thrown out, the landfill would go first. Sort of handy: a landfill and a black hole all in one.
So if you take a maximum-mass neutron star and add a little mass to it, what do you get? So far as we know, there’s no stage between neutron star and black hole. So you can have a black hole with mass that low.
Which isn’t really relevant. If we assume normal aluminum density, then we get Achernar’s answer. In actual practice, of course, the core of a very large alumiball would compress, so we would get a black hole quicker than that. But I have no idea what the equation of state of aluminum is at such extreme pressures, and frankly, I’m not sure I want to know (even I have to draw the line on useless knowledge somewhere).
What about a Quark Star (sometimes called a Strange Star)? IIRC they are consider an even more dense star that might be a stable star between a neutron star and a black hole.
Actually, a quick Google search turned up this article ( http://www.nature.com/nsu/020408/020408-8.html ) that suggests a quark star might have been found (although it is open to debate whether or not it really is one). Still, the notion of a quark star seems to be valid in scientific circles.
Hmm… still no nearer an answer on the ulimate fate of record attempt, and the views are becoming heated on both sides on the argument here in the office (there is a genuine, non-hypothetical box of tasty foil wrapped snacks at stake after all). Will the aluminum form a black hole before any other effects (fusion, super-nova, etc.) take hold ? A poster on a related thread said this:
Will the different thresholds on this web-site apply to us ? Will the fusion component of equation which stops a star collapsing, do the same for our ding-dong wrappers ? Will aluminium fuse at all ?
BTW - On the issue of the side-bet (what the world record is for the biggest foil ball). Just because a record is not on www.guinnessworldrecords.com doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, if you read the small print the database online only holds a small selection of the records in the book. We’re pretty sure there is an existing record, though we can’t find out what it is…
Your Ding-Dong ball will have to pass through various stages before a black hole forms (unless you keep many smaller masses of aluminum foil separate and then bring them together all at once such that their combined mass could form a black hole).
However, if you just keep adding aluminum wrappers to your ball you wold eventually get enough to start a fusion reaction. After that you proceed through a few explosive consequences of continuing to add mass till you get your black hole. Of course, once the fusion starts your Ding-Dong ball will no longer be just aluminum as it would start fusing into other elements (this ultimately stops at iron as fusing beyond that takes mroe energy than it produces).
Your ball will resist collapse into a black hole via fusion and a few other mechanisms (e.g. neutron degeneracy pressure) before collapsing into a black hole. Essentially your ball will want to explode and will try very hard to do so.
