Which is why I included the word “alleged”, and asked the question in general, not just in this case.
ETA: and your statement isn’t even correct. It’s not just Shawn Moore claiming this, it’s also his attorney.
Yeeeaaahhh, I don’t care who you are, if the police want you to show them all the guns you have in your house and their registration and you refuse, you should get into trouble.
Of course, I trust the police in my country and do not believe citizens need guns for personal protection.
That is because he knew his rights (or consulted the lawyer) and stood up for them. I have dealt with DCPP. Many of them are not nearly as up on the law as you would hope. I can not say for certain that it happened exactly as he said it did. But from my own experience nothing he said made me immediately throw the bullshit flag.
When there is an allegation DCPP is obligated to investigate it. Even if the entire allegation is “They treat their kid bad.” Due to the fact that there have been highly publicized scandals involving dead kids that DCPP (which probably helped lead to their name change) were supposed to be monitoring, they are very sensitive to any allegation made. And I don’t really blame them for asking for a police escort when they found out that a weapon was involved.
There’s a big difference between what the police might want, and what we are obligated to give to them.
Now, if you give them only what you are legally required to give, they may only give you a level of consideration that they are required to give, and you may not enjoy that.
Yeah but there is that pesky 4th amendment thing. It does make my job harder. It would be so much easier if I didn’t have to worry about warrants or probable cause. Damn those Founding Fathers!
if they really need to see them, they can go get a judge to sign a search warrant. that’s kind of the way we do things here.
I’m sorry, but someone isn’t automatically “trustworthy” just because they have been given a position of authority.
Quite the opposite, I’d rather believe.
The bullshit flag gets thrown on his characterization of what happened, since it’s exactly opposite of what actually happened. No one barged into his house, forced him to open his safe, took his kid away, charged him with a crime, etc.
What happened to him is, in fact, exactly the kind of thing we want to have happen to people in our society. We want people to call in cases of child abuse to the proper authorities, if they believe they have witnessed such. We want the authorities to investigate. We want people’s rights to be respected during such an investigation. And we want an investigation that finds nothing amiss to be written off as closed.
The only thing that raised any flags here is that an idiot (yes, based on his failure to understand the events that befell him, I think he’s an idiot) called the news because he was upset that someone had called CPS and he had to deal with the authorities. Tough shit. Welcome to society. You did nothing wrong, so nothing came of it. Get over your butthurt; you’re the one who shoved that stick up your ass.
Cite, please.
so where was the indication of abuse in this situation? Please, tell me where.
I don’t know about you, but I DON’T want a society where people call social workers over trivial bullshit because they see someone doing something they don’t like. “I don’t like guns” is not justification to sic the authorities on someone.
that’s all well and good, but going apeshit on a frivolous report doesn’t make up for those dead kids. Maybe they should worry more about actually doing their jobs rather than making it look like they’re doing their jobs.
Apparently someone thought there might be a reason to call CPS, since they did call CPS.
Sadly for you, most people DO want a society where sometimes the calls about possible abuse are not actual abuse. Most people feel investigating things that sometimes turn out to not be actual abuse is an okay thing because lots of times those investigations show that abuse was in fact occurring. Unless you figure out a way to control what each every person’s personal judgement on abuse includes (and you can make sure it matches your own), some of the things that get called in are going to seem trivial to you, whereas obviously to the person who made the effort to call it in, it seems more problematic.
And what is your cite that that was the reason for calling the picture in?
I have to disagree with your characterizing a CPS worker doing her job in the manner proscribed as “going apeshit”. And in fact it looks like she (and the officer(s(?)) present were doing their jobs. In light of how the final outcome seems to match the facts as we know them, I’d say they did their jobs well.
Sorry, I’m not going to re-post my last two posts; please just go and re-read them.
I did, and I think you’re dead wrong. Nothing he said was incorrect.
Going to put myself squarely on the “This probably never happened” side of the fence.
Then why couldn’t you have just said that in your first post, instead of using it as some sort of pathetic attempt to bait me into something? Thanks for sharing your opinion, and letting me know that it differs from my own. Have a nice day now, mate.
Well we know the police closed their case. Since such things are confidential we do not know if DCPP has closed their case. It is not necessarily the final outcome.
I don’t know how things are in your quarry, but I have seen DCPP screeners attempt to bully and intimidate parents to cooperate beyond the powers that their legal authority gives them. I have also seen them be more than a little hazy as to what the law grants them to do. Please tell us about your experience with the New Jersey Department of Child Protection and Permanency.
I see no problem with them investigating an allegation. But I would not surprised it happened exactly as the guy and his lawyer says it did.
I see no problem with people being critical or wary about an organization like DCPP. They are given a lot of power. DCPP has to follow the 4th amendment but for them *the legal standard is not probable cause, but whether the proposed investigation is one being conducted according to “reasonable standards.” How a court will rule on “reasonableness” will be determined on a case-by-case basis. *(DYFSv Wunnenburg 1979)
ETA: I lost about half this post, got distracted and can’t remember what I said. But I’m sure it was brilliant.
Well, police are regarded a bit differently around here and there isn’t as much ‘I need to feel masculine, so I’ll become a cop and abuse my authority!’ posturing going on. Funnily enough, it’s harder to get guns here, but since we don’t have a gun culture people aren’t clamoring to become cops to have a gun. It’s almost like people trust the police to enforce the rule of law!
I just come into threads like this every time to be the Devil’s Advocate among the NEED MAH GUNS 'CAUSE I DON’T TRUST NO ONES crowd.
Because your post made so little sense that I figured I missed something. Good to know you can’t back up your opinion and show us what, exactly, you think he said that was wrong.
Even according to the father himself, the father’s story is the opposite of what happened. He said that he let the agents into his house, and then didn’t let them see the inside of the safe, and then he said that this proves that we live in a country where they can force their way into the house and force him to open the safe.
True, but until this story resurfaces in the news, I don’t see a point in worrying about the possibility.
I don’t have any experience with or for the NJDCPP (is that the right acronym?), but everything you describe is a normal part of the functioning justice system we have. Police also attempt to bully and intimidate people to cooperate beyond the powers that their legal authority gives them. Police are also more than a little hazy as to what the law grants them to do. So are judges (see the recent “banned from all public libraries” story for instance). Get back to me when there’s really something to be upset about here.
You’ll notice that I am taking his story at face value. I’m not disputing that the events happened, I’m just disputing that he’s not safe in his own home, that he and anything illegal happen to him, that this is an example of tyranny, etc.
I’mm sure it was, and I understand and concur that agencies like the NJDCPP should be under scrutiny and why people are wary of them; I’m originally from Florida. The thing is, there’s really no story at all here, beyond the fact that a guy got upset that DCPP got called and he had to deal with it. Like I said, tough shit. Suck it up, buttercup. Welcome to society. Sometimes you have to deal with stuff. In the end, there’s no harm done to him or his family, so like i said, that stick up his ass is there because he put it there himself.
I was reading this on Preview and I realized that I guess what bothers me most is that some news organization and some people think that the story is about why the guy got mad, when I see the only thing remarkable being that the guy got mad enough to call a news organization to tell them that he’s mad even tho nothing illegal or untoward took place.