Pete the pup, of Little rascals fame, was the son of one of the most famous fighting dogs of all time.
Lucenay’s Peter (Petey) was sired by Tudor’s Black Jack. Earl Tudor was one of the biggest breeders of fighting dogs, and Black Jack was his favorite dog he ever owned.
there’s a big difference between aggression towards animals and aggression towards people. sadly, most backyard breeders don’t care about eliminating human aggressive dogs from the gene pool.
Here is Denver’s definition:
Thank you for pointing this out. The “straw man defense” is thrown out about these boards with great frequency. And I’d say about half the time it does not apply.
To those who come to the defense of these dogs saying that it’s the way the dog is raised and not the breed, could one of you provide a cite showing all the killings and maulings by Golden Retrievers. Or lacking that, a cite that shows how Goldens are always raised perfectly. Thanks.
But we really haven’t in this thread seen any real evidence that pit bulls are worse than other dogs of their size. This Year’s Model’s evidence is well everybody says they are a problem.
people mistake boxers for pit bulls all the time. people ask if my boston terrier/french bulldog mix is a pit bull puppy. that definition is ridiculously vague and arbitrary.
i know a guy in denver who had the cops show up at his house because trick-or-treaters reported a “pit bull” in his house. he has a bull terrier (spuds mckenzie).
it’s ludicrous to try to control dog problems by cracking down on dogs with certain physical features.
unneutered male dogs are consistently responsible for over 2/3 of all reported bites. why not ban unneutered male dogs?
That is the best suggestion I have ever heard on this subject.
There could be special exemptions for registered breeders or owners of registered show dogs.
What are the arguments against it?
Is there any evidence that a breed ban would be more effective than this? If so, please present it.
One very tiny other exemption would be for animals that cannot undergo anesthesia. We had a cat we couldn’t spay because she had hypertrophic cardiomyopathy and couldn’t be put under.
This would be an exceptionally rare exemption.
:rolleyes:
Look, any dog is only as well-behaved as the training it has received. Breeds will have a tendancy toward certain behaviors, and working breeds in particular require training, socialization, and discipline. Chows were bred as guard dogs; as such, they tend to be protective of their home and family. They also tend to be stand-offish, and if not well-socialized can be aggressive. Shepherds are bread for herding, and will tend to herding behaviors (nipping, protectiveness, et cetera). Again, they require socialization and training to understand when those behaviors are appropriate and when they are not.
Terriers (of which the various “pit bulls” are a part of) are ratters and vermin-killers. If not appropriately socialized, so that they understand that people and especially children (who often scurry about and squeek like vermin) are not to be atttacked they’ll follow their instincts. An appropriately socialized and disciplined dog will (excepting inherent behavioral defects analogous to atavistic neurological syndromes in humans) behave appropriately around children and strangers. The problem comes when people purchase a breed of dog without understanding the requirements for training and disciplining the animal.
I had part of my lip half-ripped off, as well as several different lacerations over a period of a few years by a damn Cocker Spaniel that my mother failed to train or discipilne, and yet I don’t see anyone railing to ban Cockers, which (owing to their excitable temperment and inbreeding) display this behavior frequently. Ditto for other popular but difficult breeds like the Dalmation, the Jack Russell Terrier, and the Cardigan Welsh Corgi. In other words, the owner needs to be cognizant of the needs of the breed. We seem to forget, in this day of purse-sized yap-traps that dogs were originally working animals and most require some simulcrum of discipline and activity to satisfy their instinctual urges. Lacking for that, they are going to develop aggressive and anti-social behaviors. Just like people.
I wouldn’t mind seeing potential owners required to learn how to train and discipline their pets…but then I’d say the same thing about potential parents. Meanwhile, the breed-sniping does a credit to no one. Chows, terriers, shepherds, hounds can all be good companions and pets if raised correctly; and all can be dangerous if neglected, abused, or unsocialized.
Stranger
Stranger i agree with you, however one fact remains…that Cocker Spaniel wasn’t going to maul you to death. Neither was the Jack Russel, the Corgi or the Dalmation. Sure they’re rip your lip off, or your ear or leave you with a nasty ugly scar, but that’s a far cry from damaging your skull, or crushing your arm or tearing out your throat.
It’s been my experience that little dogs are often much bigger a$$holes than big dogs, because they are allowed to get away with so much more. Their owners must assume that, since they’re small (and “cute” - although I think pit bulls are among the cutest dogs around, much cuter than Jack Russells), they can’t do much damage, so they’re given much more latitude.
I don’t particularly want to be bitten by any type of dog, no matter the breed. Any human-aggressive dog is a problem, no matter what size they are.
The Saint we had, if she had a notion, could have ripped a person to pieces. She didn’t. Other Saints haven’t been so gentle.
I’ve never been bitten by a dog. My sister lost a nice chunk of flesh to an incredibly gentle breed–a Newfoundland.
I think most everyone can agree that the issue here is the owners. Yes, a dog may have certain tendencies, but a good owner can circumvent most major issues that dog may have. The problem is finding said owners and making sure they are the ones with the big, strong, aggressive dogs.
I will be the first to admit that my chow can be a grumpy, stand-offish jerk that dislikes cats and will sometimes snarl at our other dog. That said, he is a good, well trained dog that would never hurt anyone. I have always discouraged his “jerk attitude” and encouraged the good bahavior; that took a lot of time and a lot of work. If I had thrown him in the yard on a chain and never gave him attention (like entirely too many people do), I’m sure he would be a horrible, person attacking dog.
Also, people are truly stupid when it comes to identifying breeds. I can’t tell you how many people used to ask me if my great dane was a pit. I would just stare in disbelief and say, “Yes, we gave him growth hormones.” :rolleyes: And this wasn’t just a problem with random morons on the street, I had several animal control officers argue with me, trying to convince me that my pure bred, papered great dane was a vicious pit. Yup, totally vicious. Can’t you see the fire of pit bull rage in his eyes?
I’ve even heard of movements to ban great danes and include them in the list of “bully breeds.” Let me ask you this: have you ever met a dane that did anything but sleep and drool? Exactly.
I’m all for making people learn how to care for their dogs and mandatory neutering.
I own a 7 year old American Pit Bull Terrier. I’m certain that he is an APBT because I bought him from a litter that resulted from a breeding between 2 registered APBT show dogs. He’s not neutered because you can’t show neutered dogs. He is a very gentle dog. I would trust him with most children, but I would not leave him alone with a kid I don’t know because I can’t trust every child to not torment my dog. Once they know each other and I feel sure the kid knows how to treat a dog, sure, I’d leave them alone unattended for a few minutes.
When he was 6 months old I would not let small children play with him because he was rambunctious and mouthy. In fact, he was rambunctious and mouthy until he was about 3 years old. He has always been game towards other dogs. That means that he will try to dominate other dogs, and if they don’t allow him to be the boss, he will try to put them on their backs. This is typical dog dominance. He will be OK with many (but not all) other dogs, but will take a few days to work out the terms of their relationship.
I trust my dog completely with other adults. He has only threatened one person in his life, and that was a man trying to push his way into the house when my ex wife was home alone. He is literally the very most loving, attention starved dog I have ever known.
There are other pit bulls I don’t trust and worry will bite a child. A couple of them have been bitches with litters of pups. The rest I just don’t know well enough to form an opinion about.
All this should tell you that it’s not a simple matter to predict any dog’s behavior. You have to get to know a dog well to determine what it will do in most given circumstances, and after nearly 7 years with my boy I can predict his behavior well. I have to say that not all dogs (of any breed) have the disposition to be great pets, but there are dogs of all breeds that do. I have seen pits, chows, chihuahuas, dalmations and spaniels that were too skittish, nippy or agressive and presented a biting danger. The recent popularity of pitbulls has resulted in them being owned by people who shouldn’t own a dog in the first place: people who want a tough dog to make up for a feeling of inferiority and insecurity, or people who just aren’t responsible enough to take care of a dog in the first place. Pit bulls aren’t the breed for people like that.
It’s not a simple issue. Sure, you could outlaw the breed. You could also outlaw handgun ownership, automobile ownership. There are already restrictions on dog ownership, like getting the dog vaccinated and registered with the local government. Maybe more restrictions are needed for certain breeds. I wouldn’t mind requiring pet ownership classes and proof of housing before you can own a dog. It all comes back to the people who own the dog.
pet peeve: “game” does not mean dominant, or aggressive. gameness is tenacity, a refusal to give up in the face of extreme adversity.
here is my baby-killer, looking threatening: dangerous pit bull
Here is a link to a long list of reports of dog bites:
http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/OtherBreedBites/AllDogsBite.htm
Check out the breeds responsible. Work out averages. It includes incidents with some of the “beloved gentle breeds” and “small dogs” as well.
Here is a link to a Court TV article about the incident mentioned in the OP.
I agree that any dog at any time can turn and attack. I don’t agree that pitbulls are more prone to attack than any other breed and should be banned. However I refuse to handwave away, the fact that IF you are attacked by a pitbull or any other ‘dangerous’ breeds, your injuries will most likely be greater, than had you been attacked by a ‘safer’ breed.
We’re not seeing multiplekids killed or maimed by Newfoundlands or Saints, or Labs, even if the majority of bites are by those types of breeds, they aren’t killing AND that’s what’s gotten people up in arms.
People need to understand that owning a lab isn’t the same as owning a pitbull or a rottie or a jack russell and I think we do them a disservice if we handwave away the difference in the breeds.
Well firstly banning pit bulls is just not enforceable. The American Pit Bull terrier as a breed already suffers identification problems. Tons of people will sell or label dogs “pit bulls” that just are not truly Pit Bulls, they haven’t been subjected to controlled breeding and are mutts.
How can you say one dog is a pit bull and one isn’t? I can easily find you a dog that looks just like a pit bull, eventhough it may be half boxer, or something. The only dogs that would actually be demonstrably pit bulls would be ones that have actually come from real breeders. And that’s kind of sad. Because typically it is the responsible dog owners that go to a breeder, and dogs that are bred by professionals have the greatest chance at not having certain negative behavioral traits.
After that, I don’t think you can find reliable statistics on how violent pit bulls are versus other breeds. Mainly because there is a media hype about them. Selective reporting, hysteria, inaccurate classification of breed all contribute to polluted information. It’s probably nearly impossible at this point to actually get accurate stats on whether or not pit bulls are more prone to being involved in biting incidents than any other breed.
My last point is no dog is safe. Dogs are animals and even the smallest dog has vicious jaw strength. When I was twelve years old my family was babysitting my aunt’s cocker spaniel. The dog was highly erratic in its behavior, but for a few hours it had been well behaved and calm. I went to pet it and ended up with a pretty deep bite wound and a tetanus shot.
I think I’m one of the best dog owners on the planet. I’m rigorous in making my dogs well behaved. But I’d still never let them run loose in a neighborhood, and I’d never let any children play with them unattended. And the dogs I have aren’t really that dangerous, but I still wouldn’t do it. I know my dogs are well trained and that they’ve never had a biting incident. But like ANY creature, they can be irritated to the point of violence, and some kids don’t know any better than to pick on a dog, or they may not realize if they’re hurting a dog. And then on top of that even with the best training, I think ALL mammals are capable of erratic reactions that are outside the norm. It’s never happened to me, but I wouldn’t rule it as impossible that a well trained dog, even one of my own dogs might “lose it” some day and attack me or someone else for no reason.
That’s why I’d never let small children play with my dogs unattended. Why take that risk? I love my dogs and honestly would be truly shocked if they ever hurt anyone but I think people are fooling themselves if they think dogs as a species are entirely safe.
I’d also never own dogs in an urban or suburban setting, I think there are just too many issues that make it a problem for the dog, the dog owner, and any neighbors that you may have.
Mandatory spaying and neutering would help with that problem, by making it harder to be a backyard breeder. It would also help curb dog overpopulation, which is a huge problem in and of itself. I think it’s a much better idea than breed-specific bans in so many ways.
That reinforces what I’m saying. You can be the best owner/trainer and still have a dog that through breeding will be more aggressive and mean-tempered.
