Pit-Bull dogs, the law and families.

Great Debates
21

I’m not sure if I understand what you’re saying? Why are pit bulls selected for dog fighting? Well, that’s what Pit Bulls were bred to do much like Collies were bred to herd, Wolfhounds were bred to hunt and Doberman Pinschers were bred to protect. Dog fighting has been around as long as people have been around.

As another poster mentioned, however, it’s a mistake to conflate dog aggression with people aggression. The two are very different. Just because a dog is dog-aggressive does not mean it will be people-aggressive. This is especially true for pit bulls. When you have two dogs fighting you must be able to separate them. It would be a difficult task to separate two dogs willing and able to bite a human being. Therefore, Pit Bulls have historically been bred to be as people friendly as possible. IMHO, it is a behavior etched into them as deeply as a border collie’s instinctual reaction when it sees sheep.

This isn’t to say that some Pit Bulls aren’t people aggressive. If you treat a dog badly, if you don’t socialize it and if you don’t train it, you are going to run into problems. This can be said about any other dog, however, if I had to deal with a dog that wasn’t trained, wasn’t socialized and was treated badly, I would take a pit bull over any other dog because of its propensity to be human friendly.

Just as a reference, this is what happened with Michael Vick’s dogs:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/magazine/12/22/vick.dogs/index.html

“In the end, 47 of the 51 Vick dogs were saved. (Two died while in the shelters; one was destroyed because it was too violent; and another was euthanized for medical reasons.) Twenty-two dogs went to Best Friends, where McMillan and his staff chart their emotional state daily; almost all show steady improvement in categories such as calmness, sociability and happiness. McMillan believes 17 of the dogs will eventually be adopted, and applicants are being screened for the first of those. The other 25 have been spread around the country; the biggest group, 10, went to California with BAD RAP. Fourteen of the 25 have been placed in permanent homes, and the rest are in foster care.”

The key word, IMHO, is “seem.” There is a lot of bad reportage when it comes to Pit Bulsl. Fear mongering and moral panics sell papers. Just as people loved to read about non-existent needles in Halloween candy so do people love to read about a vivd Pit Bull attack. The problem is whether these reports actually involve a Pit Bull or Pit Bull mix. I would urge you to read the thread I cited. NajaNivea, the thread starter, goes into great detail of what a poor job (and outright damage) newspapers do/have done on this subject.

If you’re really interested, I would also recommend two books. One I’ve mentioned repeatedly. “Bandit” by Vicki Hearne. It’s a very thorough and well-researched book on the fear mongering surroundings Pit Bulls . I know Czarcasm doesn’t like the book but he hasn’t attempted to disprove her research so make of that what you will. Additionally, I would recommend “Folk Devils and Moral Panics” by Stanley Cohen. It doesn’t discuss Pit Bulls but does analyse how, why and what is a moral panic and I believe his research can be applied to the subject at hand.

22

What are attack dogs bred to do?

23

Attack dogs (usually selected from the working breeds group) are trained to attack
whatever the trainer teaches it to attack.

Pit Bulls aren’t usually selected for work and/or sports that involve attacking humans (protection work, ring or schutzhund) because they’ve been bred to be very friendly to humans. German Shepherds, Belgian Malinois, Doberman Pischers are the usual suspects.

And that’s enough for me in this thread. It’s bad enough when a moderator succumbs to logical fallacies but feeding trolls just isn’t for me. If it makes you rub your hands with glee to believe Pit Bulls are out there just waiting to rip people to shreds then enjoy. I would however urge you not to limit your mental prowess and intellect to Pit Bulls. Think about the wonders you could do with death panels, poisoned Halloween candy and witchcraft in Salem.

In any event, I’m off to go investigate this horrible thing I read on the internets. Apparently Obama wasn’t born in the United States. Can he really be our President?

24

The thing is, pit bulls aren’t attack dogs. I mean, they’re being used by some people as attack dogs now, but that’s not what they were bred for. Pit bulls are terriers. Specifically, they’re a breed of terrier that’s been mixed with bulldogs to make them stronger. The terrier wasn’t bred to be attack dogs…they were bred to kill vermin. And that’s what the pit bull was used for originally…first for baiting bulls and bears, and then when that was stopped as inhumane, it was used as a ratter. There was a sport that used to be popular because of terrier’s tendency to go after vermin…you’d take a terrier, and you’d put it in a pit, and then dump a bunch of rats in the pit, and put bets how many rats the terrier could kill or on how fast it would take the terrier to kill the rats. They were also used in dogfighting.

The thing with pit bulls, and with terriers in general, is that they’re not and weren’t bred to be aggressive against people. They were bred to be aggressive against small animals. The problem with terriers in general is that they tend to be high strung, and I don’t think terriers in general are all that great around kids. And the thing is, pit bull terriers are probably, I think, most even tempered and mellow of the terriers.

25

I’ve owned*: A german shepherd/collie mix*, a terrier mix*, a shepherd mix, a pit bull (uncut tail or ears), a hound mix, and an english fox hound*.

*denotes ownership from puppyhood

As you can see, a mix of breeds, some considered family friendly, some not. Also, There’s a mix as to how early I started training them. All were around children constantly.

They all to me seemed about equal in ease of training, aside from the hound mix. That dog was dumb as a box of hammers, and bit my neighbor when he reached his hand over the fence. However, she easily looked the least foreboding or threatening of the bunch.

Of the two considered dangerous:

The german shepherd jumped though a closed glass window at a mailman she loved because one of us kids was sleeping on the porch. She would also patrol at night each of our rooms, and lick cake off our faces.

The pit bull would growl and defend territory, but never bite, and to be honest was the most patient of the bunch. She was very sweet and patient with my niece as a baby, even when there was ear pulling involved.

I think simple (hah!) legislation would clear up a lot. Illegal to own a pit that’s had it’s ears clipped or tail docked. If someone screams about show dogs, proof is necessary that you show the dog in a nationally recognized event. Vet’s will have to become mandatory reporters, although it’s already doubtful those with fighting dogs would bring them in for care. These guys that are fighting the dogs don’t want to deal with torn ears or bleeding from tails.

26

What I meant was - are these breeds inherently dangerous or is it a result of their upbringing (not a tautology - the breed may be bread to be an attack dog in ages past, but the treatment of them in the here and now may well play an important part too). This would appear to speak against your point, though.

Yes, this is exactly what I was driving at. However, it doesn’t make sense that a dog which is ostensibly ‘people friendly’ would be chosen, or rather specifically targeted, to be bread as attack dogs and have aggression fostered in them.

I’m glad that story ended on a positive note, but over here dogs from that sort of environment would be invariably destroyed (as shown in the articles above), as the risk of attack is deemed too great.

I’ve been reading through the thread you linked, which isn’t easy going as emotions run high. And when emotions run high hyperbole and exaggeration run riot (on both sides). If I get a chance I’ll look into those books you recommended. The key thing seems to be what is symptomatic and what is in fact the root cause - the symptomatic is obvious; the reported attacks and statistics (possibly inflated/confused, granted). The cause seems (hate to use that word again) somewhat more nuanced.

I hope you’re not addressing me here, as the charge of deliberate trolling and spreading logical fallacies is a serious allegation even in GD. Back in IMHO (and in the OP) I explained that I may well be incorrect about my perceptions of dangerous dogs (specifically the Pit-Bull and Rottweiler) and consequently the fairness of legislation surrounding them.

27

The problem with laws outlawing pit bulls is that ‘pit bull’ itself is such a nebulous term. There’s a few different pit bull type dogs who are registered with the big dog associations - the American Staffordshire Terrier, the Staffordshire Terrier, the Bull Terriers, and so on. The UK Kennel Club recognizes a dog called the American Pit Bull Terrier but the American Kennel Club doesn’t. So right up front, the term Pit Bull could mean a lot of different dogs.

But on the street, it doesn’t matter anyway. Michael Vick didn’t get his dogs from registered AKC or UKKC breeders. Nobody would pay money for a pure bred pup just to get it eaten up. The street fighting dogs are mutts from backyard breeders. There’s simply no practical way to outlaw that.

So if I want to start showing American Staffordshires, I’d be subject to these laws even if the pups came from long lines of champions bred for obedience and conformation, even if I was diligent in training them myself. But if I just adopt a stray, then what? Maybe the stray has pitbull blood but doesn’t look it. Conversely, maybe the stray had a pitbull great granddaddy and just happens to resemble it in looks only. Or maybe the stray has boxer or bull terrier (the spuds mackenzie dogs) blood and doesn’t have any pit bull at all, but people just freak out about his looks.

So what can these laws do? They come down to “well he sort of looks like a pitbull …” when the dog in question may be a complete mystery in terms of provenance.

That’s the disconnect for me. These laws focus on the pure breeds because there’s no practical way of outlawing mutts. But to the extent that ‘pit bulls’ are a problem* - it’s not the offical purebreds that are the troublemakers. If anything, we should be encouraging the purebred breeders and owners to produce good family dogs. Instead, these laws burden good dog owners while doing nothing about street fighting mutts.

*I’ll stipulate for this post that pit bulls are a problem to some extent. How big an extent is otherwise disputable, but not what I’m talking about at the moment.

28

Last fall I was invited to a friends house. Everyone was out by the pool sitting around and drinking iced tea. There were maybe seven of us there.

It was a couple of minutes before I noticed the pit bull beside the chair of one of the guys. I had never been around a pit pull before and was surprised that my hostess hadn’t warned me.

The dog was not full grown, but it was very quiet. I had expected something intimidating. The owner was almost constantly giving the dog attention, talking quietly to it, soothing it, and, I think, giving it quiet commands.

The dog seemed to be very calm. I had no fear at all and that really surprised me.

Later, I was taking some dishes into the house just as the dog, on its own, was coming down the same walk way. I didn’t see him until the last moment. I was startled. He was startled that I was startled, but he looked almost like it hurt his feelings that I was showing fear. We quickly just relaxed and walked on by.

I wouldn’t mind being around this dog with his owner again. I will not, however, walk around my block anymore because of the pit bull in charge of the corner. No thanks.

29

I think if Yorkies were 120 pounds and strong as a horse, they’d be a fucking menace too. Maybe even worse than 120 pound pit bulls. Yorkies go nuts and attack stuff against their master’s will too, but it’s pretty easy for a human to overpower a raging yorkie, and a raging yorkie would have a tough time killing other dogs.

30

Pit bulls are NOT 120 pounds. This site says it’s possible but rare to get to 85 pounds and rarer still 110 pounds, but average is 35-55 pounds. Neither are they able to even pull a child on a sled through the snow, so not as strong as a horse either.

Also from that site “A very common misconception is that APBT’s are muscle bound (viscous) hulks that weigh in around 85 pounds (39 kg.) and this is generally not the majority, Most of the APBT’s that Are that large have been crossed with another breeds.”

31

Thank you for the ease-of-training comparison amongst the breeds.

32

Depends on what breed of dog has been trained to attack on command. There are no breeds of dog that were developed to just blindly attack anything and everything–such an animal would be as dangerous to the owner/handler as to enemies. That’s the difference between terms like “herding dog” and “hunting dog” and the term “attack dog”; the former two refer to what the breed was developed to do and the dog’s instinctive personality and behaviors, and the latter refers to what the dog has been trained to do. If you want to train a dog to attack on command, your best bet is a breed that’s highly territorial and bred to guard against/drive off strange humans and predators. That’s why your police dogs are typically German shepherds and malinois.

33

So, is the theory that reporters just have it in for pit bulls? Or that authorities are to blame for just looking at conformation of dogs seized following serious attacks and not doing DNA studies to exclude the possibility that a mixed breed was involved?

Most people hear a litany of stories of such attacks, note that a particular breed was involved a disproportionate amount of the time, and draw reasonable conclusions. They’re well aware that other breeds of dog will bite depending on circumstances and training, but that the consequences are generally far worse if a pit/pit mix goes bad, as opposed to a Chihuahua going on a rampage.

It’s too bad so many people have taken a decent breed and perverted it.

34

Or that people reporting the attacks really can’t identify breeds. They make the assumption that any dog with a slightly squarish head is a pit bull and the reports use what they’re given. It’s a bit of a cycle, as the public hears of “pit bull” attacks, they generally assume that dogs that bite are pit bulls unless it’s extremely obvious otherwise.

35

Czarcasm, I was this close to Pitting you. I withhold my acid for now.

There’s also a massive ignorance concerning what an actual “pit bull” is. For most people, the “pit bull” is a strange, generally shadowy creature that looks vaguely dangerous.

This is not so. Bulldogs in general are quite loving creatures, but most of what is called a “pit bull” simply isn’t. People call everything from dogo argentinos to mastiffs (fercryinoutloud) by the name “pit bulls”. In fact, identification of actual pit bull terriers is so poor that I’m inclined to dismiss any report which doesn’t specifically address this.

36

I’ve posted in these threads before, probably even in the ones linked here, but I’ll give my two cents.

My best friend loves animals. She has several Pits, mostly rescues. She got the first one from the bust of a dog fighting ring. Kisses (the Pit) was going to be destroyed because she was too violent. My friend lived on 9 acres and had 6 or 7 other dogs at the time. She built an enclosure to house Kisses and worked with her every day. She found that Kisses had developed a mistrust of people due to her mistreatment.

Eventually, Kisses grew to trust Stacey (my friend) and a bond developed. After 6 months, Stacey allowed Kisses out of her enclosure. Kisses showed her dog aggressiveness but Stacey was able to control her to keep it to a minimum. Kisses showed no people aggressiveness during this time.

After several more months, Kisses stopped showing aggressiveness to Stacey’s other animals… dogs and cats for the most part, but woe to the raccoon or oppossum that wandered into her yard. Stacey’s had Kisses for 8 years now and is probably the sweetest dog I’ve ever been around. She’s great with Stacey’s kids and lives up to her name.

37

My wife is a dog trainer and my sister is a veterinarian. We are also the owners of Cub, a rottweiler. He holds an obedience championships, an agility title, a utility title is a therapy dog among other things. We have an eighteen month old child who is very much like Good Dog Carl in the childrens books.

It isn’t quite that simple though. Rotties need to work, they need to have a lot of exercise and they are not appropriate for people who don’t know what they are doing. They don’t react to just yellling at them to stop doing things, they need disciplined consistent training.

The problem with the banning of any breed is that their danger really has very little to do with the breed. Remember when Dobermans were the guard dog of choice? Anyone want to ban Dobermans? Before that it was German Shepherds. Any of a certain class of intelligent mid-sized to large breeds can be trained to be aggressive and potentially dangerous. If the idea was to ban any dog gangsters and thugs siezed upon as their breed of choice we certainly would have banned:

Rotts
Pit Bulls and their variants
Dobermans
St. Bernards
Presa Canarios Dogo Argentinos and their quasi mastiff cousins
Rhodesian Ridgebacks
German Shepherds

There is absolutely no reason a standard poodle, which is more like a German Shepherd or Rottie than you might think, couldn’t be next. Anyone want to argue for banning that list?

Again it isn’t that simple. I have no problem with shelters choosing to euthanize some breeds knowing they are unlikely to find the right owner. This includes Rotts and some other breeds. I have no problem with taking away animals from irresponsible owners. Breed bans are where the line is drawn. They ignore history, which clearly shows that a huge swath of the classic family dogs could be banned under the same rationale and it denies people the freedom to own the dog that best suits them.

38

My daughter was badly bitten by a Golden Retriever. Any breed of similar size can and will bite under certain circumstances. This is like deciding to stop drug dealing by banning blinged out Cadillac Escalades. They wont always be the fashion and they are simply a tool and not the root of the problem.

39

They aren’t even looking at the conformation of the dogs many times, since Labs, Shepherd mixes and others that look nothing like a pit have been id’d as one by the press. Emotion sells papers and get people to look at the TV, and the term “pit bull” brings on emotion.

Which reasonable conclusion? That if you take any dog and turn it into a fighter, it is likely to bite? And that therefore the breed doesn’t have anything to do with it?

Your Rott is an OTCh?

Plus, all a breed ban does is move the bad owners on to some other breed.

40

Pit bulls, and I refer here to actual, full-breed, pit bull terriers or staffordshire terriers, are one of the most family friendly dogs you can own. They can and will stand for a lot of the poking and pulling that young children dish out without even seeming to feel it. My girlfriend and I, both separately and together, have owned many. I have had young children in the house with them and have never had the least trouble. My girlfriend owned two that she bought from Michael Vick, himself. They were extremely friendly. Pits are very intelligent, highly trainable dogs.

Now, having said that, they are VERY energetic and can knock small children down in their exuberance. So there is that to watch. They need a great deal of attention and exercise on a daily basis. You need to be prepared to give them that if you want to own one. Other than that, I highly recommend them.