Pit Bulls. Again and Again and Again......

The BBQ Pit
21

Pit Bulls are like .45cal pistols, where most other dogs are like bb guns. Yes, you’re just as likely to get accidentally shot. BB guns can injure/maim/kill an infant, too. .45s can be very safely handled, if one cares to. However, you’d have to be blind to not see that one is not quite like the other. Things that are potentially very dangerous require more care than the average, and should have more rules regarding their ownership.

In my world, where Cheesesteak makes the rules, it would be simple, the dog owner is 100% responsible for the actions of his dog. Your dog bites someone, it’s treated legally just as if you bit them. Your dog is powerful and bad tempered enough for that bite to kill, looks like you’re up for manslaughter/murder charges, so choose your pet wisely.

22

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
Sure. An adult could generally get a Yorkie off a child. But if you tried to stop the 200 lb. Saint my family used to have, you’d lose an arm.

My point was that you cannot tell how dangerous a dog is by its breed. You cannot say that a dog that will hurt another dog will hurt a person. That Saint we had tried to eat a neighbor’s yappy Cocker. She was a loving, goofy dog with people, but wanted to kill other dogs. She didn’t get the chance, but she wanted to.

My sister had a Newfoundland and had someone ask if it was a pit bull. My other sister had a Boxer, and people always assumed it was a pit bull. That’s how completely ignorant people are about dog breeds.

It doesn’t help that there is no one breed that is the “pit bull breed.” It definitely doesn’t help that the hysteria makes idiots want to get a “pit bull” so they can be badass. If pits are banned, those idiots will have Rottweilers, Doberman Pinschers, Boxers, German Shepherds, or heaven forbid Saints or Mastiffs, etc. All of which are bigger dogs than pit bulls.
[/QUOTE]

If your second paragraph means “You can’t tell a dog’s propensity to violence from its breed”, I’ll agree with you. OTOH, you can make a fair assessment of the damage it could do if it was feeling cranky.

I agree absolutely with your assessment in your last paragraph.

23

If it’s not what you call “pit bulls”, it will be something else…Cana Corsos, etc. People will find something else, outlawing breeds will not help.

It’s people who are broken, not animals. Illustration (not related to quoted story): I simply cannot believe that any pet owner in their right mind would take their dogs to fireworks; or even leave them outside when they’re going off…dogs’ hearing is a hell of a lot more sensitive than ours. Yet, in previous years, I have seen several proud dog owners trotting out their dogs to the fireworks display at the park and making the dog stay there even after discovering that they clearly are terrified to be there. Uneducated pet owners are the broken ones, not the breeds.

As I mentioned before, uneducated owners are the difficulty.

24

In the real world, I’ve personally witnessed dogs attack children four times*. Each time, thank gods, we were able to intervene and minimal damage was done. Yes, this is an important part of the equation. But more important, I think, is having a dog who doesn’t *require *intervention, as a well raised dog won’t, regardless of breed. I’ve seen no statistical evidence for breed-specific banning or killing of animals, no *numeric *information that pit bulls are more prone to attack. Anyone have a cite?

*The breeds, for those keeping score at home, were one basset hound, who did very little damage (a consolation band-aid and a kiss were all the treatment needed), one pekingese, who did a bit of damage which only required home first aid, and one nasty little chihuahua, who sent two kids to the hospital for stitches in two days. Only the basset was mine, and he was a newbie from a shelter, so his background was unfamiliar to me. He was returned and stamped “home with no children” on his forwarding papers. Had any of them been pit bulls, we probably would have been forced to kill them. Because they were other breeds, we were simply advised to not let them play unsupervised with the kids.

25

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Overall, I agree with you, but this is not going to go well.

Pit Bull owners will defend their dogs and the breed. They will explain it is only a small percentage that causes harm. They will argue it is the training of the animal and not the nature of the animal. Etc.

BTW: From what I do know is that Pit Bulls are not more prone to attack than several other breeds. The problem is they are far deadlier due to the structure of their jaw and the way it locks. Then there are the criminal asses that train them to fight and attack. If I am wrong about this, please cite it.

I would argue there are plenty of other great breeds and better yet mutts and that the pit bull breed should end. Please stop breeding Pit Bulls and when they die of natural causes, find another nice dog. Look into rescuing a dog from a shelter. Most of the Dog Breeding industry is out of control anyway. Please stop encouraging puppy mills.

Jim
[/QUOTE]

Definitely agree with your first and third points. The second, I don’t have know enough about.

I’m an admitted dog lover and I’ve pretty much never not had a dog. I love all dogs. Is one breed different than another breed? Of course they are. I caution anyone with small children to consider the implications of dog ownership and kids.
Most dogs end up in shelters because of irresponsible dog owners that didn’t take the time to research the breed and train their dogs. I own a 12 lb West Highland terrier and would never allow my dog to be alone in a room with a small child ever. If people come up to me and ask if their children can pet my dog or ask if she bites I honestly have to say I don’t know. It’s a dog. If you hurt her, poke her in the eye, pull her ear, she’ll probably bite.

This is off topic regarding pit bulls, but my sister owns a 100lb lovable mutt that’s very gentle. When my nephew was about 4-5 a little neighbor was over playing. The phone rang and my sister stepped into the next room to answer the phone. She heard a cry and rushed into the room and the little girls face was bleeding. They rushed the little girl to the hospital and the doctor said that it looked like the dogs tooth caught the skin by the little girls eye. There wasn’t a bite mark. It’s unclear what happened but my sister paid the little girls medical bills.

They sued, said she needed plastic surgery and had to into therapy. It created so many problems for them and their son. The parents were understandably upset. It just caused lots and lots of problems for everyone. My sister feels guilty, the people don’t speak to her and she’s afraid to let kids in the house.

I just don’t know how you could live with yourself if you had a dog that killed or disfigured someone else’s child. There are so many breeds to chose from why take the slightest chance this could happen. I’d seriously think about owning any dog until your child is out of the toddler stage. Make sure you get proper training for the dog and remember it’s an animal.

My cousin has a pit bull that she rescued that’s a wonderful dog. A few weeks ago someone elses pit bull got out of the yard and attacked an elderly woman walking down the street. It’s easy to say it’s the owner and not the dog but that doesn’t help this woman. Since we can’t do much about the idiots out there, maybe we should consider regulating certain breeds.

I feel horrible for the dogs that have to be destroyed because they’re owned by morons.

26

[QUOTE=Malacandra]
Read for comprehension about “five-year-old children” and “despite intervention”, willya? :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]

Do a little research before you talk out your ass, willya?

27

[QUOTE=Who_me?]
Pitbull jaws don’t lock.
[/quote]

That is bullshit. There is no specific physiological reason for it, no doubt about that, but there sure is a psychological reason.

Pit bulls are tenacious when excited. Just get one of those short thick rope toys with a knot on either end. Gently swing it till your dog grabs the other end and then try to get it away from him. Chances are you will have an opportunity to do so wheny your dog attempts to re bite for a better grip or lose interest. It you have a pit bull, chances are that you can even swing him around off his feet horizontally and he won’t let go until you do.

When they attack dogs or chidren, its not bite or bite bite bite like most attacking dogs. They will grab onto a chunk of flesh and not let go until they’ve ripped it off the resisting child’s body whereupon they immediately reconnect with the screaming child for another challenging pull. Only when the screaming and physical resistence stops will the pit bull get bored and stop.

This is not a normal behavioral trait for any other species. Its a trait that has been ingrained through crude genetic manipulation by men.

It is kind of neat to play with a pit bull. Its kind of neat to observe the tenacious behavior of an excited pit bull and observe their beautiful musculature in action. I’m willing to forgo that pleasure.

28

[QUOTE=Who_me?]
Pitbull jaws don’t lock.

http://www.dogwatch.net/myths/lock_jaw.html
[/QUOTE]

That’s not exactly a non-biased site. That’s about pulling legislation and current bans.

Here’s a link to the CDC regarding deaths by breed

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

29

[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman]
When they attack dogs or chidren, its not bite or bite bite bite like most attacking dogs. They will grab onto a chunk of flesh and not let go until they’ve ripped it off the resisting child’s body whereupon they immediately reconnect with the screaming child for another challenging pull. Only when the screaming and physical resistence stops will the pit bull get bored and stop.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I went into this thread thinking that you weren’t a deluded fucking lunatic. Since I see I was wrong, I won’t be posting any more responses.

30

I’m not sure I agree with the absolutists statements made by some of the posters here w/regards to pitbulls. Any medium to large sized dog (55lbs on) has thepotencial to be lethal to most human beings. Pound for pound they are just that much stronger than humans – add to that their biting prowess and, again, the potential is there.

I happen to be the proud owner of a 31/2 year old female Dobie that goes about 77 lbs., and as much as trust her (raised her since she was 6 weeks, sleeps on a doggie-bed besides me) and I do – she’s a typical Dobie in terms of being a “velcro-dog” as long as I am around she won’t leave my side) I am still very mindful of her when there are strangers around. So, yes, I do happen to feel that for the most part (unless there some genetic problem/sickness) there are really no “bad dogs” but rather bad owners.

Just so happens that the owner of a small grocery store across the street owns a Doberman as well. He’d talked to me about the dog a lot and how much “he loved him.” And then one day he brought him over to show me. Wow! What a pathetic spectacle: gorgeous dog, breed wise, big 90+ lbs, classical looks, etc., but full of sores and a bald circle around his neck. Turns out he keeps the dog leashed all day on a small corridor outside his home. Couldn’t get within 4ft of the dog, much less pet him. Now, take a dog like that and let him loose and guess what? I’d fully expect an attack on just about anyone that happens by.

OTOH, had he been raised and kept as I do my own, I very much doubt that would be the case.

Are there some breeds inherently more aggressive than others? Without a doubt. But that’s why not everyone is qualified to own just any breed. Don’t know much about handling dogs? Specially dominant/aggressive types? Get yourself a lapdog. Mean as some of those rat things can be – my vet tells me he’s gotten bit by chihuahuas more than any other breed in his 20+ years of practice – the damage they can inflict is clearly not on the same level as the bigger breeds I spoke about.

31

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]

My sister had a Newfoundland and had someone ask if it was a pit bull. My other sister had a Boxer, and people always assumed it was a pit bull. That’s how completely ignorant people are about dog breeds.

.
[/QUOTE]

I could understand confusing the boxer for a pitbull but I don’t understand how a newfie can be confused for one.
While working in a vet office, I have had more small breed dogs who snap at me than pitbulls. I would love to own a large breed dog, like a bullmastiff, boxer or a great dane but I am worried about getting one sine it seems like everyone is anti big dog.

32

[QUOTE=Uvula Donor]
Do a little research before you talk out your ass, willya?
[/QUOTE]

Why did you ignore that part of his post?

Your cite was meaningless.

33

[QUOTE=Uvula Donor]
Pit bulls bred to fight other dogs are routinely killed for showing any type of human aggression at all. Dogfighters need to be able to reach in and physically separate fighting dogs, and therefore dogs that show agression to humans are put down.
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I’m not familiar with the dog fighting culture and I’ll give you credit by believing you aren’t either. Do you have a cite to support the claim that dogfighters put down dogs that show aggression towards humans?

34

[QUOTE=Caridwen]
That’s not exactly a non-biased site. That’s about pulling legislation and current bans.

Here’s a link to the CDC regarding deaths by breed

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf
[/QUOTE]

From your link:

Pardon the formatting or lack thereof, but it is a pdf file.

Interesting thing is – to me anyway – that it appears to come to similar conclusions as I did in my prior post.

35

Ladders and swimming pools are much more likely to get someone killed than a dog.

If you own one of these dangerous items (whose unfortunate murderous latent nature is no fault of their own) then I reserve for you the largest portion of anger that I can muster from my generally genial nature. Anyone who feels okay to put other people at risk by either owning or supporting the ownership of pools and ladders must take responsibility every time one of these incidents occurs.

36

[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman]
Pit bulls are tenacious when excited. Just get one of those short thick rope toys with a knot on either end. Gently swing it till your dog grabs the other end and then try to get it away from him. Chances are you will have an opportunity to do so wheny your dog attempts to re bite for a better grip or lose interest. It you have a pit bull, chances are that you can even swing him around off his feet horizontally and he won’t let go until you do.

[/QUOTE]

I can and do play “tug” with my Dobie, and unless i give her the “let go” (“suelta” in Spanish) I can do the exact thing with her – swing her around by the rope. Granted not very high as she’s rather heavy to do so plus I’m afraid for her teeth breaking/loosening. Thing is, again, a well-trained dog WILL release ON COMMAND. If they don’t, they are simply not well-trained or even trained at all.

Vicious circle type of deal we have here.

37

[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman]

Pit bulls are tenacious when excited. Just get one of those short thick rope toys with a knot on either end. Gently swing it till your dog grabs the other end and then try to get it away from him. Chances are you will have an opportunity to do so wheny your dog attempts to re bite for a better grip or lose interest. It you have a pit bull, chances are that you can even swing him around off his feet horizontally and he won’t let go until you do.
<snip>

This is not a normal behavioral trait for any other species. Its a trait that has been ingrained through crude genetic manipulation by men.
[/QUOTE]

You are so wrong on this it’s hard to know where (or even if) to address the levels of your wrongness. And I’m rather shocked, because you seem so sensible in other threads.

Yeah, they have strong jaws. So do bulldogs (also claimed to have “locking” jaws.) They don’t “lock”, there’s no physical mechanism for them to “lock”, they’re just strong. As a kid, I’d swing my pug around with a kitchen towel - all four feet off the ground, swinging in a circle. He didn’t have a “locking” jaw, even in rumor. My neighbor’s Jack Russell does a cute little trick where he likes to get pulled up onto the couch by clamping onto a rope and getting hauled up by his teeth.

There’s no behavioral difference in the fighting style of a pit bull and a sharpei, or a beagle. All dogs bite until they can get a grip and then wrastle if they outweigh their opponent. All dogs nip and run if they don’t outweigh their opponent.

From Caridwen’s CDC link:

38

[QUOTE=Dumbguy]
Ladders and swimming pools are much more likely to get someone killed than a dog.

If you own one of these dangerous items (whose unfortunate murderous latent nature is no fault of their own) then I reserve for you the largest portion of anger that I can muster from my generally genial nature. Anyone who feels okay to put other people at risk by either owning or supporting the ownership of pools and ladders must take responsibility every time one of these incidents occurs.
[/QUOTE]

There is no reasonable option to replace these items with something else. You can however decide to get yourself a dashund instead of a pit bull for a pet.

39

For a few facts, check out the American Temperment Test Society:
http://www.atts.org/testdesc.html

compared to other breeds Pitbulls seemed to score pretty damned high on the stable side
http://www.atts.org/stats1.html

Higher than the German sheppard for instance.

40

Yeah, it’s the thin edge of the wedge, soon they’ll be shipping all dogs off to the crematoriums. :rolleyes:

I always remember the big discussion we had a couple of years ago when this came up. I posted the same CDC info that Caridwen, though my links dead now. Seems hard to ignore the disproportionate number of deaths attributed to Rottweilers and Pit bulls (though I know “Pit Bull type” includes 3 fighter breeds, really)

Very cute. Pools don’t sneak out of the back yard and many municipalities have rules about having a latching gate around pools, but still very very cute.

Redfury the anecdotal evidence that a doberman can be as tenacious as a pit bull