Pit Bulls. Again and Again and Again......

As **cowgirl **points out above, ‘pit bull’ is a bit dicey to diagnose.

Another problem with a study like this is that it does not take into account how the animal was raised, or whether it was neutered. There is absolutely nothing in this study to show that the behavior of the animal is a result of breeding. Or how many attacks were made by dogs who escaped the control of the owner.

A dog is **never **to blame for it’s behavior. They exist outside the world of morality. Every incident of bad behavior on the part of a dog is the sole responsibility of the owner.

It will probably turn out that I am wrong again, but I have heard that Dobies and German Shepards from Puppy Mills are prone to ‘Snapping*’ and attacking even their masters.

While this is still a very small percentage, from what I have heard it is much higher than average.

Caridwen: Great links, good food for thought. The numbers of deaths from dogs bites is lower than I would have expected. I was pleased to see that despite the popularity of Labbies and Golden Retrievers, these breeds only accounted for one fatality.

Jim

  • By Snapping, I mean going crazy or turning on their owners.

Bullshit.

I found this fantastic quote:

From here

They weren’t popular during that period. German Shepherds were.

Cite?

All dogs have a high tolerance for pain.

Dog bites are guaranteed to happen.

Cite?

I read about a specific problem with brain development, but only in Dobermen that had been inbred from pedigreed parents. I’ve forgotten the mechanics, but the effect was what you’re describing.

I guarantee you that I could take an 8 week old Black Lab and turn it into a killing machine by the time he is two years old. Virtually every time. And I am absolutely convinced that if I took an eight week old Pit Bull Puppy, and neutered it, socialized it, trained it, and maintained control of it that he would present no danger at all to anyone. Ever.

I think neutering is the biggest factor. From all of the stats, it appears to be intact male dogs who are the biggest risk. Again, that can have owner skewing, since the idiots want intact males.

Ack. I meant the biggest factor inherent to the dogs, not the biggest factor over all–which is the owner.

Absolutely. Spaying or neutering is essential to responsible pet ownership. However, I believe that socialization and training are important as well.

I wonder how many dogs in Caridwen’s cite were neutered animals who came from loving homes and had completed basic obedience courses? Were dogs whose submissive behavior was reinforced, while the aggressive behavior was corrected? Were dogs who were under the control of the owners? I’d be willing to bet damn few, if any. It’s an ownership problem, not a breed problem.

Not a vet, but I suppose the case you describe could happen to any dog, i.e., “snap.” I mean, if it can happen to something close to a human being such as Mike Tyson, there’s no reason it couldn’t happen to the trustiest of animals. But I do want to point out that the “Dobe turning on the owner” bit (usually also involves some nonsense about them losing their sense of smell – wich again, could happen to any dog) is nothing more than an Urban Legend:

Doberman FAQ:

I will, however, admit, as I have throughout this thread – in fact said as much in my first post – that it’s not the same thing to be attacked by a small animal, than it would be, for instance, to have my Dobe, Silky, jump on you. I simply don’t give too many humans good odds against her. Thus the importance of not only training, but the added responsibility in owning such a dog.

Contrapuntual makes a very good point that hadn’t been brought up until he did. And that is, that it is of the essence to both, establish yourself as the Alpha dog of the pack as well as to include the dog into your pack. This is of great import with many a breed – with the Doberman, as opposed to what many people think, right up there at the front of the pack. If you want a social Dobie, he/she better be part of the family and not chained/restrained by himself for hour after hour. That’ll almost guarantee a very dangerous animal.

See, one of things I like best about Doberman’s that not many people know is that they are the ultimate “velcro dog.”

Doberman Pinscher Information

my bolding.

In closing, when all is said and done, it’s still up to the pet’s owner to both train his/her animal and know what kind of temperament it has. Even then I don’t have absolute trust when strangers ask me if they can pet Silky. When they ask me "if she bites, "I normally reply “not today yet, no.”

Not to say any number of people that come home don’t eventually get to know her – and she, them – and play with her – she’s always in the mood for that – but better to be safe than sorry.

English Bulldogs are so deformed by ill-considered breeding that they’d be lucky to hold onto their lunch, let alone a bull.

I think the curved teeth story is yet another version of the “locking jaw” myth which is widely and falsely believed about Pits. Pits have teeth much the same as any other dog.

English Bulldog

German Shepherd

Pitbull Terrier

Blue Heeler

Labrador Retriever

I agree with you. It’s only because I’ve lived with these dogs for years that I feel they are safe with children. The Shepard/Husky is a no-brainer, she’s a loving dog and kids are totally safe with her. The Chow/Husky is a different story. She’s strong willed, aloof, independent, energetic, and incredibly strong. Physically, she’s one of the most beautiful dogs I’ve ever seen, and would have made a great dog for a mountain man type guy who lived by himself in the woods, with the advantage that he could knit himself sweaters from her underfur. She doesn’t have any of the physical problems Chows typically have, just her very heavy undercoat tends to dreadlock.

But we have to constantly reinforce our position with her via all the standard tricks. Give her a command she doesn’t particularly want to do, and you can practically see the wheels turning in her head as she considers whether I still have what it takes to be pack leader, or if she should challenge me. I’d never choose to have another chow but my wife got this dog 14 years ago as a puppy, and she’s a great dog, but I was just as wary as you would be before I got to know her.

If it were up to me, 98% of all pit bull type dogs would be neutered. But again, banning dogs by breed makes no sense. Enforce laws against dangerous dogs by behavior, both from owner and dog, not by the ancestry of the dog.

No you were right the first time…neuter the owners, and almost all these problems would disappear overnight.

In respect of what? I didn’t deny that there is at least a theoretical possibility that pretty much any breed of domestic dog can kill a child of some age - such as a helpless newborn, especially if there’s no-one there to see. But this dog was able to kill a five-year-old quickly and despite the interference of her grandmother, who was by no means an old dodderer but a woman still in possession of the better part of her strength and health, at 46.

I don’t understand what your problem is with the notion that dogs that are especially likely to be dangerous to children are poorer choices for household pets than smaller, more docile breeds. I mean, a largish tabby cat could plausibly do killing damage to a week-old baby, and could certainly mutilate it given the inclination and a little leisure time. Would you rag on me therefore if I impugned the good sense of someone who thought it’d be cute to bring a leopard to a New Year party?

Knob. :rolleyes:

I think you’re missing my point. Sure there are breed-specific behaviours. Aggression isn’t one of them. Dogs of any breed given a certain upbringing will be aggressive. And even if you could make a list of which breeds are aggressive and which aren’t, the old Heinz 57 is virtually guaranteed to have enough old wolfie genes in there somewhere that he can be made into your slavering nightmare attack dog.

The set of dangerous dogs is not circumscribed by nature, but by nurture.

Simply bullshit.

Nothing inherently “dangerous” about the Doberman breed that doesn’t hold true for any other one. Other than urban myths that is.

Oh and BTW, they are considered the fifth “brightest” breed of all dogs.

Brightest Dogs

I’ve little doubt in saying that mine is smarter than me – and darn, do I have a ton of anecdotes to prove it. Which might might not be saying much, but still…

Looks that way to me to me, too.

any truth to the bite strength?

That cite’s utter tripe. I have a border collie and he still thinks Iraq had WMDs.

Yes. Are you suggesting that article is accurate ? This was written in a time when many people refused to call the breed German Shephards in light of the recent war and substituted the term Alsations. but I will accede to support that the German Shephard was the most feared breed at that time, used in the Army, the Police for Seeing Eyes and junkyards everywhere .

For all types of reasons.

For low Pit bull intelligence ? 49th, even with the harmless Dachshund, and I own one of those and they are really stupid. I have two dogs. When the dachshund wants food or go out, it frantically jumps up and down barking and whining until I determine its problem. My spaniel will make a lot of noise pushing around its food bowl towards me for food and running back and forth from me to the door when it wants to go out.

Cite? My dachshund yelps if my foot comes down inches away from her. My dachshand also refuses to go outside when the weather is bad.

I know. big Deal.

don’t have one. I can assume that the less intelligent the animal, the less control a human has over that animal.

By the fact that my big vicious dog is sitting there on the floor of the vet’s office- in a sea of annoying, jumping, and whining dogs- sleeping with two other little kids jumping all over him.

But WhyNot makes a good point- I was especially fond of the parents that would ask first. That’s fine. I just got sick and tired of women snatching their kids away, telling them of the HORRIBLE DEATH that will come to them if they EVER TOUCH A PIT BULL AGAIN. They’d be screeching this, almost in tears.

Good lesson to teach your kids-- not to respect dogs and treat them accordingly, but rather to be afraid because OMG THEY’LL KILL YOU!!! shrill harpy screech :rolleyes: